"Your crewmember is insta-killed by a suspicious boarder"

General discussion about the game.
thereaverofdarkness
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Re: "Your crewmember is insta-killed by a suspicious boarder

Post by thereaverofdarkness »

stylesrj wrote:To be fair, when you jump to a beacon with an event that can kill a crew member, you have a choice not to lose someone.
If you know when those events are coming up. Some are obvious, plenty of others are not.

What I dislike most about these events is that they are both counter-intuitive (often) and counter to the in-game physics (basically always). So instead of playing strategically to win, you simply become accustomed to events you've seen plenty of times, and you select the correct answer. That's a little thing called fake difficulty and it's one of my biggest pet peeves in games. FTL is loaded with quite likely more fake difficulty than I've seen in any game since the '90s.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... Difficulty
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stylesrj
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Re: "Your crewmember is insta-killed by a suspicious boarder

Post by stylesrj »

What I dislike most about these events is that they are both counter-intuitive (often) and counter to the in-game physics (basically always). So instead of playing strategically to win, you simply become accustomed to events you've seen plenty of times, and you select the correct answer. That's a little thing called fake difficulty and it's one of my biggest pet peeves in games. FTL is loaded with quite likely more fake difficulty than I've seen in any game since the '90s.
Sometimes fake difficulty and a choice in whether or not you can risk your crew is what you need to make the game experience enjoyable.
Do you want to decide "Maybe this time those giant alien spiders are a joke" and hope with your fingers crossed that this time the giant alien spiders don't eviscerate your Crystal?
Imagine if this happened all the time:

"You arrive at a beacon. Suddenly proximity alarms go off around the ship. There were explosives nearby and you lose several bits of hull and one of your unfortunate crew who happened to be nearby."
"You find the Zoltan Great Eye. Because it doesn't like you, it takes one of your crew and replaces them with a Repair Arm. Have fun until you find a store!"
How fair would that be?
At least the Rock Mine gives you some sort of a saving throw before it possibly kills your crew (to which now that I look at it, you have little choice in the matter, unlike those spiders or the Great Eye)
Leylite
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Re: "Your crewmember is insta-killed by a suspicious boarder

Post by Leylite »

stylesrj wrote: You can also avoid the Slug Oxygen Hack for about 25 Scrap. It's called "Level 2 O2."
Oh, whoops, I misspoke. I didn't mean Slug Oxygen Hack, I meant "slugs with broken oxygen system ambush", which is another event that can kill your crew:

http://ftl.wikia.com/wiki/Slug_Oxygen_Malfunction

Believe me, I have no problem with Slug sectors... most of the time.
thereaverofdarkness
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Re: "Your crewmember is insta-killed by a suspicious boarder

Post by thereaverofdarkness »

stylesrj wrote:Sometimes fake difficulty and a choice in whether or not you can risk your crew is what you need to make the game experience enjoyable.
You're talking about actual difficulty: making informed choices in which you have an effect on the outcome of the situation even when you are aware that you are selecting one of two or more chance-based scenarios.

I'm talking about how you have to know what the possible outcomes are, by trial and error, before you can make a reasonably informed judgement. The alien spiders is pretty clear to be a danger to your crew, but the Zoltan Eye is quite the opposite. There are plenty of other crew-deleting situations in which, if you don't have experience with that specific scenario already, there is no reason for you to suspect you are in any danger. Sometimes the game even goes out of its way to convince you that an option is safe, only to punish you for trusting.

The Mantis escape pod is an excellent example of FTL's in-game and text event disparity; when a newer player who has not yet realized just how much disparity there is finds this pod, they will probably check their crew to decide if it's safe to let the mantis out. The player may see no danger when they have a sizeable crew including mantis and rockmen, but that doesn't stop the text event from demolishing a crew member under a hand-waved explanation.

Even worse is the man of questionable mental state. He's assumably human, and yet is somehow able to insta-gib one of your crew at random.

Another unwarranted crew death comes in the plasma storm wrecks event, in which if you choose to search the wreckage, you can end up finding out you had sent crew out of the ship to do it. You weren't informed of this before you made the decision, and rather than take hull damage from the impact, you lose crew.

Another example of this handwaving comes with the Zoltan shield, and how it is supposed to defend against enemy boarders. Anyone with experience going through uncharted nebula sectors may believe a zoltan ship to be a great choice because you'll never get attacked by enemy boarders, which is one of the sector's biggest threats. But you come to find that if anything, the frequency of being boarded increases, as if the game is trying to say "you can't cheat the text events, now die for trying!" And that bit of flavor text they added in advanced edition to "explain" it is an absolute failure to explain because it misses explaining how these zoltan shield bypass units are so extremely common on enemy boarding ships you don't see, yet so very rare in stores or on enemy ships that you fight in combat.

There are other events in which you don't get any safe option, and I don't mind that so much as long as the explanation is reasonable. The rock mines event is fine as long as it doesn't happen too often (and it doesn't), but the mantis fugitive event is way too common and there's no safe way to handle this mantis who apparently has the ability to cause 5 hull damage to you from inside your ship before you can react. It makes no sense at all.

Events like these don't make the game more fun. They don't even add a significant amount of difficulty. Once you are familiar with the events and know what outcomes you can expect, making an informed decision is usually quite easy. For instance with spiders: do you risk crew for scrap? If yes, fight spiders. But it takes a lot of experience (or checking the wiki with each event) to even begin to make a reasonably informed decision.

That's FAKE DIFFICULTY and it is NOT fun.
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stylesrj
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Re: "Your crewmember is insta-killed by a suspicious boarder

Post by stylesrj »

You might as well complain about in other Roguelike games you were walking down a corridor and some trap appeared out of nowhere with no warning and it instantly kills you. Or the Level 1 Gnome with the Wand of Death.
If I were a new player I'd be discouraged by this and not play the game.

But if you're familiar with roguelikes or have a glutton for punishment, you'd remember not to do that event again or try the other option. Then the third time rolls around, the lesser of two evils.
Sometimes the game even goes out of its way to convince you that an option is safe, only to punish you for trusting.
Hey anyone remember the game Infinite Space (not the mod)? If you decide to be honourable and let the pirates go, they'll boobytrap a passcard they give you and when you go free the prisoners, BOOM! Byebye little girl you were trying to rescue :(
Even worse is the man of questionable mental state. He's assumably human, and yet is somehow able to insta-gib one of your crew at random.
How else was he living on that planet for so long without anyone else around?
Another unwarranted crew death comes in the plasma storm wrecks event, in which if you choose to search the wreckage, you can end up finding out you had sent crew out of the ship to do it. You weren't informed of this before you made the decision, and rather than take hull damage from the impact, you lose crew.
You're searching wreckage. The game informs you there may be a danger.
There are other events in which you don't get any safe option, and I don't mind that so much as long as the explanation is reasonable. The rock mines event is fine as long as it doesn't happen too often (and it doesn't), but the mantis fugitive event is way too common and there's no safe way to handle this mantis who apparently has the ability to cause 5 hull damage to you from inside your ship before you can react. It makes no sense at all.
Well the Mantis obviously had a bomb. They don't go quietly, so BOOM!
Makes perfect sense.
And that bit of flavor text they added in advanced edition to "explain" it is an absolute failure to explain because it misses explaining how these zoltan shield bypass units are so extremely common on enemy boarding ships you don't see, yet so very rare in stores or on enemy ships that you fight in combat.
That's because they bought them all before you did! Why else are they rare? :P

--------------

My biggest pet peeve is the stranded Rock cruiser when you're out of fuel. If you don't pay the crazy Rock any scrap, you lose your crew. The guy says they'll kill them but when you move away, the crew doesn't return in the Clone Bay for some reason.
thereaverofdarkness
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Re: "Your crewmember is insta-killed by a suspicious boarder

Post by thereaverofdarkness »

Hey anyone remember the game Infinite Space (not the mod)? If you decide to be honourable and let the pirates go, they'll boobytrap a passcard they give you and when you go free the prisoners, BOOM! Byebye little girl you were trying to rescue :(
It's more believable, provided the passcard is accessing a bomb that is hooked up electronically to the passcard slot. I don't mind a bit of random unexpectedness in the game. I don't have a problem with sinister characters (perhaps that you didn't know were bad) doing sinister things. It's when the game deliberately lies to you about your options, or doesn't give you any possible way to defend yourself that I have a problem with it. Most often in FTL my peeve is that characters in text events become momentarily omnipotent and do things that should have been completely impossible for them to do.
How else was he living on that planet for so long without anyone else around?
Are you suggesting that the only way to survive on an unpopulated planet is to have the strange ability to insta-gib humanoids and deal hull damage to spaceships?
You're searching wreckage. The game informs you there may be a danger.
Yes but it deliberately misleads you as to the nature of the danger. By reading the text initially, one experienced in FTL other than this event might think the danger is in taking hull damage. A newer player would likely suspect that the danger is that your ship might get hit by derelicts or debris, or you might encounter a hostile ship. But there is nothing to indicate that your crew are going into danger, and there should be. Were you the commander in that situation in real life, you would have to give the order for your crew to suit up and exit the spacecraft. You and they would be well aware of the danger to them. The text event could say "Have your crew exit and..." but it doesn't even bother to go that far.
Well the Mantis obviously had a bomb. They don't go quietly, so BOOM!
Makes perfect sense.
He is given no indication of having one so either it's not a very big bomb or (more likely) the text event failed to mention to you that he had a giant bomb strapped to his back. Doesn't make much difference since either choice you make, there's a 50% chance he'll explode, and there are no blue options to save you. Worse still is that the game tells you that bombs don't deal hull damage. The only way for a loose mantis to deal 5 hull damage to your ship is for it to take out 5 systems. And it's lucky to even get one out of service before you stop it. I wouldn't have a problem with it if the text event just stuck a mantis in your ship.
That's because they bought them all before you did! Why else are they rare? :P
Clearly the real reason is either that the designers didn't want the Zoltan Shield to give you an advantage in boarding events, or they were too lazy to implement the detail. Why they thought it would be a problem, though, is beyond me. I wouldn't mind if the uncommon boarding party (especially in Zoltan space) had the bypass unit, but having absolutely every boarding party possess one is just absurd. And don't try to say the game might just not be mentioning it when those random events fail to board your ship, when you get your Zoltan cruiser boarded 5 times in under 10 jumps, the random events are clearly just ignoring the shield.

Perhaps some interesting flavor could be added if the nearby station boarding event (without combat) would use its turret guns to bring down your shield to board you, or the nearby station boarding event (with combat) would have the station wait until the ship you're fighting brought down your shield. But ignoring the shield entirely is just lousy design.
My biggest pet peeve is the stranded Rock cruiser when you're out of fuel. If you don't pay the crazy Rock any scrap, you lose your crew. The guy says they'll kill them but when you move away, the crew doesn't return in the Clone Bay for some reason.
Yeah that one is pretty annoying. Would be nice if the crew would sometimes be killed by the event, allowing the clone bay to revive them.

What I dislike even more though is when your crewmember gets sick and stays behind to help find a cure. Having a clone bay, you should have the option to tell him to commit suicide so he can come back.
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stylesrj
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Re: "Your crewmember is insta-killed by a suspicious boarder

Post by stylesrj »

Are you suggesting that the only way to survive on an unpopulated planet is to have the strange ability to insta-gib humanoids and deal hull damage to spaceships?
Yes. They did say he had a makeshift bomb. Perhaps he took a few power cells, jury-rigged them into an unstable matrix and BOOM!
Now why didn't we detect this before putting him on the ship? Because we were not expecting a bomb. We'd expect it next time but game code limitations...
But there is nothing to indicate that your crew are going into danger, and there should be. Were you the commander in that situation in real life, you would have to give the order for your crew to suit up and exit the spacecraft. You and they would be well aware of the danger to them. The text event could say "Have your crew exit and..." but it doesn't even bother to go that far.
Fair enough. I hate those events myself, especially ones where you dock at a station and someone dies. Cant our advanced sensors run a check or something so we don't get ambushed by crazed cannibals?
And it's lucky to even get one out of service before you stop it. I wouldn't have a problem with it if the text event just stuck a mantis in your ship.
50% chance? More like 33% chance. 33% chance he'll be arrested and you get money, 33% chance he'll explode and 33% chance he's tricking you, becomes a boarder and the enemy ship is an Engi ship with Mantis onboard.
Clearly the real reason is either that the designers didn't want the Zoltan Shield to give you an advantage in boarding events, or they were too lazy to implement the detail.
Or that they bought all the bypasses before you got there :P
And don't try to say the game might just not be mentioning it when those random events fail to board your ship, when you get your Zoltan cruiser boarded 5 times in under 10 jumps, the random events are clearly just ignoring the shield.
Yeah, I hate it when that happens too. Especially in Captain's Edition Infinite where half the events are boarding events and the teleport indicter doesn't even stop them all.
Perhaps some interesting flavor could be added if the nearby station boarding event (without combat) would use its turret guns to bring down your shield to board you, or the nearby station boarding event (with combat) would have the station wait until the ship you're fighting brought down your shield. But ignoring the shield entirely is just lousy design.
The game code is rather limited so they had to put that explanation up because it's better than going "I have no idea!"
What I dislike even more though is when your crewmember gets sick and stays behind to help find a cure. Having a clone bay, you should have the option to tell him to commit suicide so he can come back.
Then the disease will pass on to the next life, like when you board that station where everyone is dead. You can't have that happening. I hate that explanation too. Why can't you get it from the Backup DNA bank? Why aren't the clones saved before each jump rather than in real-time?

In fact why are there not more suicide options? Slavers want one of your crew. Ok, I'll hand em over... with a bomb attached to them! Or a hidden weapon so they count as a boarder instead of a slave. Of course if you have no teleport to return them... they take a shuttle.

Or fake a surrender to do extra damage.
Leylite
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Re: "Your crewmember is insta-killed by a suspicious boarder

Post by Leylite »

Well, I think at some point, the best way to let the player have so many options is to play the game with a Dungeon Master instead of a computer game :)
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stylesrj
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Re: "Your crewmember is insta-killed by a suspicious boarder

Post by stylesrj »

Leylite wrote:Well, I think at some point, the best way to let the player have so many options is to play the game with a Dungeon Master instead of a computer game :)
Now there's an idea for multiplayer. Someone plays the DM and assigns random encounters. Then the game might end up like Space D&D (not Spelljammer)

"I jump to the next beacon."
"Let's see *rolls virtual dice* Ooohhh it's a pulsar."
"My 4 Zoltans protect my shield for two layers."
"And the Lanius board your shield room."
*Player prepares new character sheets and hopes there's a store nearby to use them*
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DarkPhoenix141
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Re: "Your crewmember is insta-killed by a suspicious boarder

Post by DarkPhoenix141 »

Dude, Mantises are Predator-like, tribal, pirate, Genestealers with Space Marine acid spit and some armor to match.
Your meager human is screwed.
This is no easy mission...

BUT YOU SON. YOU WERE BORN FOR IT.

And remember:

GODS WILL BE WATCHING
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