Love the game, hate the random

General discussion about the game.
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Nevill
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:06 am

Re: Love the game, hate the random

Post by Nevill »

Considering this ship has one of the worst starts it's just reload and restart after restart and when you get a decent run going, it still likelly something will destroy the way to get the archievement. The main problem there is archievements that no matter what, require you to get to sector 8.
Uh... how about 'no'?

Stealth Cruiser A is easily the best all-around ship after the Crystal Cruiser (and definitely on par with Kestrel). It is equipped to deal with each and every situation that may arise in the first 3 sectors without requiring any upgrades, except for the 2nd level cloak. Long range scanners mean that you can pick your battles, which lets you amass ~350-400 scrap by the end of 2nd sector (on Normal, and yes, I actually counted), that you can afford not to spend on upgrades and buy whatever you find in stores instead (usually, a teleporter, which translates into yet more scrap). It may be the only ship that can murder rebel ships without taking hull damage by the 2nd sector (very easy, provided that you find another weapon) on every third playthrough. By the endgame, the ship is almost maxed out.

People who talk about luck dominating over skill in FTL often cite The Nesasio as a primary example, which is hilarious, because it is one of the most skill-intensive ship.
Elhazzared
Posts: 162
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Re: Love the game, hate the random

Post by Elhazzared »

Innitially you get 5 seconds cloak. It is hardly enough to avoid complete battle damage, especially if the enemy ship actually has guns with a good fire difference which will make you use the cloak for one shot, but force you to take the damage from the second weapon which was nearly ready to fire but didn't cause you cloaked. Or you take damage from the first weapon to cloak on the second... Sure, some fights you can actually do alright, but many you can't.

If you find a zoltan ship, run for the hills cause getting past the shield with those 2 puny weapons and a 5 second cloak is going to take 2 rounds of shothing.

350 to 400 scrap by the end of sector 2? I'd ask how exactly because I've never got that much scrap with even the mantis cruiser which are the ones who gain more since they win by boarding everyone and just killing the crew off which awards more scrap (yes I play on normal, I never even made an easy run).

If you get no weapons by the end of sector 2 then you even more screwed because from there on enemies have almost always 2 shields which severely reduces your abillity to fight anyone.

The first sector in scrap is enough for making the cloak go to level 2, maybe 3 if you're really really lucky. Second sector is for cloak level 3 and a few bars of extra power so the engine isn't running on fumes. Maybe a little bit more if you're lucky.

The only times I was able to actually get far with the nessario was the really lucky runs, the ones where enemies droped weapons like candy, so I could sell what wasn't necessary and as a result could upgrade my ship faster.

if you ask me which ships I consider good. The original version of the kestrel is for me one of the best ships available, a really balanced start, can take care of almost everything and if you rush shields to level 2 right of the bat, then it's cake walk for the first 3 sectors and by then you probably got an extra weapon.

The mantis cruisers are both good. I prefer the B version, even though it actually starts worse off because of that lack of weapons so it's hard to deal with automated ships and ships with medbays. But past the first or second sector is easly one of the best ships.

I'd really like to play the version B of the stealth cruiser cause it starts with a glaive beam which is one of the best weapons in game however getting it is proving more than just hard due to such a weak start on the version A.
"The heavens burned
The stars cried out
And under the ashes of infinity
Hope, scarred and bleeding breathed it's last."

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zeek
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: Love the game, hate the random

Post by zeek »

Nevill wrote:Uh... how about 'no'?

Stealth Cruiser A is easily the best all-around ship after the Crystal Cruiser (and definitely on par with Kestrel). It is equipped to deal with each and every situation that may arise in the first 3 sectors without requiring any upgrades, except for the 2nd level cloak. Long range scanners mean that you can pick your battles, which lets you amass ~350-400 scrap by the end of 2nd sector (on Normal, and yes, I actually counted), that you can afford not to spend on upgrades and buy whatever you find in stores instead (usually, a teleporter, which translates into yet more scrap). It may be the only ship that can murder rebel ships without taking hull damage by the 2nd sector (very easy, provided that you find another weapon) on every third playthrough. By the endgame, the ship is almost maxed out.

People who talk about luck dominating over skill in FTL often cite The Nesasio as a primary example, which is hilarious, because it is one of the most skill-intensive ship.
Yeah but like beam drone can end your run before you get shields. One swipe to take down your weapons another to kill your piloting and you can't even run while it shreds you along with whatever the enemy ship is dealing out.
Elhazzared wrote:I'd really like to play the version B of the stealth cruiser cause it starts with a glaive beam which is one of the best weapons in game however getting it is proving more than just hard due to such a weak start on the version A.
Stealth B is arguably one of the worse ships in the game. Don't rush for that one. No titanium augmentation to sell in order to get shields quicker. Glaive beam takes 25 seconds to fire. That means you're going to have to tank at least one volley from your opponent even if you get to cloak through the first volley. You also start with level 2 engines instead of level 4. So, your dodge rate is much lower as well. It's just not an easy ship to gain momentum with.
Nevill
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Re: Love the game, hate the random

Post by Nevill »

Innitially you get 5 seconds cloak. It is hardly enough to avoid complete battle damage, especially if the enemy ship actually has guns with a good fire difference which will make you use the cloak for one shot, but force you to take the damage from the second weapon which was nearly ready to fire but didn't cause you cloaked. Or you take damage from the first weapon to cloak on the second... Sure, some fights you can actually do alright, but many you can't.
The trick is to cloak right as you enter combat. You get to deal 2 tamage to enemy systems, which is often enough to shut it down completely. If not, the enemy will often disable its fast 1-power weapon to charge 2-power one once it gets repaired, which allows you to shut down weapons completely. And your mini-beam wrecks their other systems in the meantime.

You can damage Zoltans with your 2nd salvo. They gets 1 shot off, sometimes 2, then they are crippled.

You can do alright every time, except for Zoltan ships with drones. Those will hit you hard, but they are very rare, and still doable.
350 to 400 scrap by the end of sector 2? I'd ask how exactly because I've never got that much scrap with even the mantis cruiser which are the ones who gain more since they win by boarding everyone and just killing the crew off which awards more scrap (yes I play on normal, I never even made an easy run).
Here is my post on GOG.com:
http://www.gog.com/forum/ftl_faster_tha ... uck/post34
And I did not count selling Titanium augment towards the scrap total.
Mantis cruiser can be easily screwed by Zoltans. Much more easily than a Stealth one.
The first sector in scrap is enough for making the cloak go to level 2, maybe 3 if you're really really lucky.
You don't need lvl 3 cloak. Your weapons charge in 10 seconds, not 15. The point is to rely on stores, and they always have something to provide you with firepower. Teleporter, drones, or an extra weapon - I alway get them by the 2nd or 3rd sector.
zeek wrote: Yeah but like beam drone can end your run before you get shields. One swipe to take down your weapons another to kill your piloting and you can't even run while it shreds you along with whatever the enemy ship is dealing out.
Well, you see... it doesn't work like that. I've seen my share of beam drones. They can't take down your weapons in ONE swipe, because it is only 1 drone (in the first few sectors), and it deals 1 damage. Meaning that you can damage the drone systems by 2 points before the drone even shoots, and then, if it is still operational AND manages to hit your weapons AND gets past the augment, you can still get 1 extra point of damage across from your lasers. There are very few ships that have drones higher than lvl 4, certainly not in the first sectors. And from the 3rd sector and on, you should have means of dealing with them.

And upgrading weapons to lvl 3 for extra sturdiness is dirt cheap anyway.
zeek wrote:Stealth B is arguably one of the worse ships in the game.
True. But Stealth A is arguably one of the best.
Last edited by Nevill on Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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5thHorseman
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Re: Love the game, hate the random

Post by 5thHorseman »

I love both of these ships, but the B in my mind is actually easier to play.

Cloak when they fire, and hope they don't hit your weapons or cloak. Assuming they don't (which is extremely likely), Glaive them to death.

If they hit your weapons, put everybody but your pilot into fixing them and run.
If they hit your cloak, put everybody but your pilot into fixing it and try to Glaive them to death, which you probably will anyway.
If they hit any other system, let it go until after the battle which will end very soon when you Glaive them to death.

Ignore enemy beam weapons. You have no way to cloak through them so pretend they're not there. If they hit Weapons or Cloak, see above.

Once you can, upgrade your cloak all the way. Usually after about 3-4 encounters. Then your strategy is even easier: Cloak when the battle starts, and Glaive them to death.

Oh and regarding drones: Pretend they're not there. Unless they come to the arc of their flight aimed at your weapons or cloak room, then cloak. Pause a LOT.
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Nevill
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Re: Love the game, hate the random

Post by Nevill »

If they hit your weapons, put everybody but your pilot into fixing them and run.
The problem with the ship is that with 2 power in engines, it can't run fast enough. And your first upgrade probably goes into cloak lvl 3, and it is an expensive upgrade. Upgrading the weapon system so it can take more punishment is even more expensive.

You are still pretty much praying that they don't hit your weapons, every battle. It doesn't have much to do with skill. But, yeah, one-shotting stuff with Glaive Beam can be pretty fun.
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5thHorseman
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Re: Love the game, hate the random

Post by 5thHorseman »

Nevill wrote:It doesn't have much to do with skill.
You misunderstood me. I didn't say it was easier to WIN. I said it was easier to PLAY. So in that we agree :)
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zeek
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Re: Love the game, hate the random

Post by zeek »

Nevill wrote:
zeek wrote: Yeah but like beam drone can end your run before you get shields. One swipe to take down your weapons another to kill your piloting and you can't even run while it shreds you along with whatever the enemy ship is dealing out.
Well, you see... it doesn't work like that. I've seen my share of beam drones. They can't take down your weapons in ONE swipe, because it is only 1 drone (in the first few sectors), and it deals 1 damage. Meaning that you can damage the drone systems by 2 points before the drone even shoots, and then, if it is still operational AND manages to hit your weapons AND gets past the augment, you can still get 1 extra point of damage across from your lasers. There are very few ships that have drones higher than lvl 4, certainly not in the first sectors. And from the 3rd sector and on, you should have means of dealing with them.

And upgrading weapons to lvl 3 for extra sturdiness is dirt cheap anyway.
I don't understand how the math works on this one. They will get at least one swipe if not more before you can fire both your dual laser and your mini beam. Mini beam takes 12 seconds to be ready to fire. You can cloak for 5 seconds. That means 7 seconds of punishment. Rate of fire of a drone is not consistent. So, we can't say how long between swipes but that's going to be more than one swipe. Either way if it takes out one of your weapons we'll hope it's the mini beam otherwise you aren't going to do any damage. Now you can do 1 damage to their drone system if both shots hit. This is far from a safe situation and may or may not disable their beam drone for as long as it takes for the system to be repaired. You're still going to be attacked by any other weapons their ship has. You're relying on luck to survive a situation like this.
Elhazzared
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Re: Love the game, hate the random

Post by Elhazzared »

Starting a cloak at 5 seconds is just not good enough to avoid all damage. You can say all you want but it just isn't, once it's at 10 seconds then yeah, it's more doable, and it highly depends on what the enemy throws at you. 10 combats per sector in the first 2 sectors is close to impossible. I rarelly see more than 6 and for scrap. Average of 12 per combat on the first, average of 17 on the second. even summing 10 combats, which I doubt very much you can easly do that's 290 scrap. But it's more likelly to assume you're gonna get some 220 to 230 scrap in the first 2 sectors.

You may or may not need a level 3 cloak, for the very first sectors, maybe not, you'll start needing it soon enough.

Teleporter is close to useless with 2 humans to fight. Sure they can do it, just barelly on most cases and hardly without anything to help them. If you had 2 mantis or 2 rock, then yeah, no problem... Also don't forget, fights still last for a while, meanwhile you're taking shots because your cloak only lasts so long.

Drones... I dunno, an offensive drone might help quite a bit early on, but it has to be very early on and 80 scrap for the controler and buying the drone if it is even available... Kinda complicated.

I cann't say the stealth B is a great ship right out of the bat, I've never played it, but thing is, the glaive beam is awesome. Sure it takes long to recharge, but you can wait on the enemy to fire, cloak and not take damage (almost all the times you won't) then you'll finish recharging the glaive before they can shot again and one glaive cut should kill them off right from the getgo, make sure to hit the weapon's room at the beggining of the beam and they won't even have time to shot while you are cutting their ship to bits.
"The heavens burned
The stars cried out
And under the ashes of infinity
Hope, scarred and bleeding breathed it's last."

For my Let's play series of FTL please follow the Link
Nevill
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Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:06 am

Re: Love the game, hate the random

Post by Nevill »

zeek wrote:I don't understand how the math works on this one. They will get at least one swipe if not more before you can fire both your dual laser and your mini beam. Mini beam takes 12 seconds to be ready to fire. You can cloak for 5 seconds. That means 7 seconds of punishment. Rate of fire of a drone is not consistent. So, we can't say how long between swipes but that's going to be more than one swipe. Either way if it takes out one of your weapons we'll hope it's the mini beam otherwise you aren't going to do any damage. Now you can do 1 damage to their drone system if both shots hit. This is far from a safe situation and may or may not disable their beam drone for as long as it takes for the system to be repaired. You're still going to be attacked by any other weapons their ship has. You're relying on luck to survive a situation like this.
The math is quite easy, in fact.

1) You only need 3 encounters (often 2) to get 20 scrap for cloak upgrade. 10 seconds is all you need to mess up the drone systems.
2) If you encounter a beam drone on your first jump and thus only have 5 seconds cloak, bear in mind that the drone system probably only has 2 power bars in it, and a single shot will disable the drone.
3) Drones take their sweet time before getting into firing position. Usually you have 3 seconds before they fire, and they slow down before firing, which serves as a visual warning for you to activate cloak. If you pay attention to what is going on, there is no way that anything fires before you do. I speak from experience.
4) You forget that, in an emergency situation, you control which weapon gets disabled, by choosing weapon order.

There are a lot of little things to keep track of with Nesasio, and all of them add up to make it a very powerful ship. There is no luck involved, but lots and lots of micro.
Starting a cloak at 5 seconds is just not good enough to avoid all damage. You can say all you want but it just isn't, once it's at 10 seconds then yeah, it's more doable, and it highly depends on what the enemy throws at you.
It is there on your 4th encounter. Damaging the system for 2 points when enemies often have no more then 3 power bars is very helpful to avoid damage. Add to this that AI keeps disabling weapons when it repairs more powerful ones, and depowers them if they get hit, and this is as good as it gets.
10 combats per sector in the first 2 sectors is close to impossible. I rarelly see more than 6 and for scrap. Average of 12 per combat on the first, average of 17 on the second. even summing 10 combats, which I doubt very much you can easly do that's 290 scrap. But it's more likelly to assume you're gonna get some 220 to 230 scrap in the first 2 sectors.
On average, I get 7-8. This is where the sensors come into play. As for scrap, you can consistently get 300+. I average on 350 (with a few events that double your reward). These measurments were taken across several games. You don't need to assume things, just try it out.
Teleporter is close to useless with 2 humans to fight. Sure they can do it, just barelly on most cases and hardly without anything to help them. If you had 2 mantis or 2 rock, then yeah, no problem...
You can board with everything, even Engis. I've done it with Engi A. Very micro-intensive, but effective nonetheless. As for the help, there are always weapons.

Barely or not, they CAN do it, and that is all that matters. How can you call a teleporter useless after acknowledging that baffles me. And don't forget, even if you can't overpower them (which happens very rarely), just keep them busy and prevent them from bringing their weapons back online while your ship dismantles theirs.
Drones... I dunno, an offensive drone might help quite a bit early on, but it has to be very early on and 80 scrap for the controler and buying the drone if it is even available... Kinda complicated.
I didn't pull the numbers I gave you out of the blue, you know. :) 130 scrap is nothing for this ship.
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