Subset Games Forum

Resorting to name calling is one way to win an argument.

spacecadet13 wrote:OK, judging by the screen shots you have, the items you purchased, scrap left over and your ending comment "Because you get 350 scrap ON AVERAGE by the end of sector 2.." I'm gonna take a wild guess and say all your experience & comments are based on Easy. Because there ain't no way you got 350+scrap in the first two sectors on any Normal run.

Or, you could have just read what I wrote when the argument started, where I stated the difficulty I was playing on. But if we actually start paying attention to what the other side is saying, we might come to an understanding, and we can't have that, can we?
By the way, here is my save file. You know how to verify difficulty, do you?

spacecadet13 wrote:Stealth A or B, on easy, I'm disappointed if I don't at least reach the flagship - which still happens, occassionally. On normal? If I get to sector 4 with either I'm doing better than average. No way anyone wins anything like 90% of the time with either ship on Normal. No way. On easy, yep, I can believe 90%+ for some players. On normal, literally every ship encounter can finish the game.

Twinge says that Stealth A can win him 90% of the games. Maybe 80%. He recently finished off the flagship on stream while having 1000 scrap in reserve, so I guess that gives him a bit of a credibility.
Elhazzared doesn't believe this claim, but he feels pretty confident with Kestrel to say that 90% of his runs go similar to the one he recently put on video. I have no reason to doubt him, too - Kestrel is a very powerful and very predictable/reliable ship.
You say that to reach 90% on Normal is impossible. Now, Easy, that's a whole different beast. Nevermind that Easy differs from Normal only in the amount of scrap gained, and, as Twinge had shown, it is not exactly scrap that wins you the game.
I believe I am seeing a pattern here.
All that's left is for some other player to call us a bunch of noobs that don't know what we are talking about, since everyone knows that the game can't be beaten consistently on Easy, because "it's random, lol".

spacecadet13 wrote:And, dude..."And what is the deal with flares? Why would you go out of your way to avoid them? " Seriously? Facepalm. Yeah, flares aren't that big a deal.....FOR A SHIP WITH A SHIELD! No shields = more fires. Noob.

I might be repeating myself, but in this case, this seems to be necessary. On this very run, I encountered each of the situations that you claim could end Stealth runs: an anti-ship drone (dispatched with no damage), a sun with a ship in orbit (took 4 damage, blew up the ship, got out before 2nd flare hit), and a Zoltan ship (took 4 damage, because I missed 1 of the shots). So, what is the deal with flares? Seriously.

And coming from someone, who, by his own admission, can't manage to win consistently on Normal, 'noob' sounds a bit unconvincing. Just saying.

spacecadet13 wrote:"Stealth before they fire..."played properly" caveat"...you really haven't played Stealth B at all, or A very much have you? Noob. Look up the stealth 101 guides.

I am talking about Stealth A. I play it almost exclusively now. I don't need to look for guides, I can write you one.

There are 2 ways of using the cloak - as a means to dodge, and as a way to temporize (for when you need to repair critical systems, charge weapons or FTL). It is not my fault that the 2nd use is often overlooked.

spacecadet13 wrote:You've got even fewer clues about boarding. My comments were specifically about the weakness of the Stormwalker, and boarding with Slugs from the start, and are just facts, nothing more. Engi's? Yeah, that's boarding 101 right there. By the time you'd done enough damage to the enemy crew to let you port over Engi's to finish them off, you'd have blown the ship up twice.

No, these are not facts. This is just wishful thinking - "if I can't do it, no one else can". You can go boarding with Torus, which only has 1 human and 2 engies. It is, actually, a viable way to gather more crew by freeing prisoners. In fact, should I play another game and post screenshots, just to prove you wrong yet again?

spacecadet13 wrote:Play both on normal, get back to me.

Getting back. You were saying?

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I don't want to doublepost, so I'll continue here.

Elhazzared wrote:It is also quite possible to get 350 scrap by the end of sector 2, thing is, this is far from average, this is on a very good run where you can get at least 7 fights you can win easly and probably a distress or two which award rewards without even fighting...[...]Average your first sector run shouldn't award you more than 60 scrap which you can run up to 110 by selling the titanium plates.

Assuming I could convince you, how many games would it take? Would you consider 3 consecutive runs enough to get an estimate for what is 'average' for the ship? Because If I can get about 350 scrap by the end of the 2nd sector 3 times in a row, it would take tremendous bad luck to bring that average down, don't you think?

Elhazzared wrote:Now all of this assumes you don't get zoltan ships which are an immediate GG and assumes that you don't get ships with drones (especially beam ones) whose drones and weapons rooms are too far apart to hit with a beam.

Guys. Guys. I can't stream, I can only post screenshots. Maybe I should do a playthrough and document my actions in a fight? I already did one, here, complete with drones and Zoltans in the first sectors (they even hit me in the weapons once, due to my own stupid mistake). Also, it is my first run completely without shields.

Zoltans do not equal GG. Please. Even Zoltans with Beam drones don't equal immediate GG, but they'll wear you out hard enough to make matters complicated. When people lose spirit and just surrender because they think their situation is hopeless, resistance is futile, and it is a waste of time to continue, it makes me angry and sad.

Elhazzared wrote:Even if you just try to sufocate the fire, you're still gonna end up without weapons before it happens, then when the fire is out you must go repair the weapons and you still took way too much damage in that. If you can't a see a problem there... Well that is your problem really.

By shitload, do you mean four? I got ~20 scrap out of that fight, then repaired for 8 scrap. Still a profit. It is how I get this much scrap, this game follows 'high risk - high reward' scheme.

If the flare damages your weapons, you still have your engines to run away. If it damages your engines, you finish off the enemy ship and repair as quickly as possible. 4 lvl engines are hard to disable completely. More often than not, the flare does not damage anything at all.

Elhazzared wrote:Stealth before they fire is all very prety, but if you fight against a ship with an engi. Sure you stealth, knock out weapons, maybe, but if it's an enemy with 3 points of weapons which there are a few and they have an engi on board, you are going to take fire back, the engi will repair the weapons before you shot again so when you shot again, they will still keep one weapon.

It's all theory. In practice, one of these weapons is a bomb, one is ion, and one is a laser. Meaning they can only do 1 hull damage when combined. And you disable 2 of them with your first blast. What the eyes fear, the hands do, is how the saying goes.

And they don't repair that fast, even with a drone on board. Stealth A has some of the fastest weapons.

Elhazzared wrote:Boarding with slugs isn't actually bad, they are just as good as a regular human in combat so yeah, they do ok.

Thank you. I seriously hoped that I would not need to prove that. Yes, if you separate their crew, you can take them out easily. Even Mantis crew.

As for Engi boarding parties... you don't do it because of their stellar performance, but because you don't have anyone else to do it with. And they manage, just barely. Whatever works, right?

Twinge wrote:I haven't played enough repeated games to have any statistically sound data, to be clear - my numbers are only estimates based on general success and perceived power level of the ship.

I have about 30 runs with Stealth A. Most runs I just discard once I feel they can take on the Flagship with no problems (that is, when they have a means of piercing 4 lvl shields, teleporter for taking out its weapons, and shields). I only continue the ones I am not certain to win. I can vouch for 80% based on this data.

Actually, I think I learned a little since I started playing it first, so it might be higher now. Who knows.

I don't think anyone has the time, nor the patience, to play a hundred of games with the same ship. 10 games are as good an indicator of success as are 100.

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And now, for something completely different. By which I mean discussing game mechanics and not personalities.

Elhazzared wrote:[...]assumes that you don't get ships with drones (especially beam ones) whose drones and weapons rooms are too far apart to hit with a beam.

Are there any in vanilla? I honestly can't remember such a design off the top of my head. All ships I remember have both rooms in the immediate vicinity.

Elhazzared wrote:the reason why you stealth after they fire is to very likelly (but not for sure) dodge their fire which will give you extra time to finish them off probably just avoiding extra pain.

Let me explain my reasoning. Cloak lvl2, which is what you'll probably use for most of the game, gives you 10 seconds cloak.

If they fire slower than that, by cloaking beforehand you will fire twice in a row before their first salvo. It can save your hide. By firing, then cloaking as they fire, you take a 10% chance of getting hit.

Now, the most interesting thing is when their firing times intermix with yours. There are lots of possible outcomes, but lets just say you encounter a ship that is equipped with the Dual laser, Pike Beam and 2 shields (next to impossible, I know, but that's just an example). You fire your Dual Laser, cloak to avoid the theirs, and beam their weapons, disabling the Laser. You are now going to get hit by a Pike beam when you decloak. Ouch.

If you cloak immediately and then fire as you decloak, you can disable their faster weapons, and you get to shoot for the 2nd time with impunity, which will disarm the Pike Beam. See where this is going?

Of course, there are times when cloaking immediately isn't a better solution. You'll have to examine carefully what the enemy is packing, and do some quick math in the head. But this tactic is viable, is what I am trying to say. The more tactics you have at your disposal, the more versatile your gaming style is, and FTL is all about being versatile.

The engi as boarders... meh, I don't even bother. It's not that you can't do it, it's that it's too much of a bother to do so cause you need to keep medbays down all the time and it requires you to go back and forth, it's a huge amount of ammo wasted on bombs and you can't really do it repeatedly with weapons cause it will take down the ship... of course you can help by doing damage to the crew with the shoots, there are a lot of variants but overall, it's too much of a bother for me to even care.

I'm not really sure how you could convince me. The input I'm providing comes from a lot mre than your 30 games with the ship since I grinded this ship to hell and back to get the B variant which I tested only once and although it generally it suffers from the same problems, it still feels a little better (besides have you looked at the ship's paint job? It's just pure awesomeness in a bottle... or in a ship ). Now out of all those games I've played (not even claiming a number cause gods... too many to count but likelly over 50) I don't pull a 50% success rate, in fact I can tell you I got to the sector 8, 3 times and beat the mothership once. I actually got lucky on the run because I managed to avoid 10 shots with a single cloak (yes I only needed 9), funny thing, it wasn't even on the mothership, it was on an elite cruiser which had 2 BL3. BTW your way of waiting for the enemy to take over a place to remove a hazard... Doesn't works! At least not with ion storms. I was pissed cause I was without a way to get to the end without jumping through an hazard but I managed the dodge award at the end... Anyway, getting back on track, that's my success rate with the ship.

Again, if you can somehow make 350 scrap in the course of 20 jumps in total. Grats, I can do it on a very good run but certainly far from it ever being average. On average you just end up getting a few empty beacons (including store visits) which will ruin my run. I don't jump into hazards, hazards in this ship is the way to just take fire or asteroids in the weapons... Sure it's not for granted but it's just asking for it, besides it's extra damage aside the damage the enemy will already inflict.

If you get like 4 damage on hazard fight and zoltan ships. You are incredibly lucky! A zoltan alone should deal you some 3+ damage per voley and it should at very least get 2 volleys on you. Whever I see a zoltan, if I fight it head on, more likelly than not I will get between 8 and 15 damage just to get rid of him, and that is considering that I won't be destroyed in the process. Sure, I could hightail it, but hightail it equals to take damage and no reward.

In the first sector you don't get 20 scrap at all in a fight, unless it's in a boarding. You get between 8 and 15, usually around 11 or 12, slightly higher on boarding. The only way to go higher, isn't exactly from the fight but like save a station or another ship that was being attacked and that gives you a second reward which happens from time to time.

In practice, most of these times it's an ion, a laser with 2 shots and a missile and usually what stays operations is either the laser or the missile which also tends to do 2 damage... As for the engi reparing it. Sure you can fire fast, but the engi can repair as fast as you can fire. by the time you shot is landing there all is repaired already, I've had it happen to me a couple times.

This conversation makes me wish we had access to more stats than we do. Like exactly how many games we've played with each ship, how many times we've died in each sector with them, and how much total scrap we'd accrued at the end of each sector in each run, or at least an average.

Of course, these should be split by difficulty.

I can't bother playing these ships again. I actually played them yesterday to see if they were really as hard as I remember. The Nesasio took 3 tries to beat the final boss and the DA-SR12 took maybe 5. In 5 of those 6 losses, I lost in a single encounter that I couldn't have predicted and could not have won or escaped in sector 1. In the other, it was 2 encounters, one of which took me down about 20 hull and the other finished me off before I could heal up. In this one I made it to Sector 2. In at least 2 of the runs I got full cloak and shields. It surely didn't feel like I did anything wrong, and I feel like I'm a pretty top-tier player.

I have won the game on video with both ships (the DA-SR12 I got through the first sector twice, but a savegame-losing crash deleted the first one), so you can pick apart my strategies if you want. The Nesasio one was recorded early in my FTL career so may not be the best example of my current knowledge level.

Elhazzared wrote:The input I'm providing comes from a lot mre than your 30 games with the ship since I grinded this ship to hell and back to get the B variant which I tested only once and although it generally it suffers from the same problems, it still feels a little better

Hey, I didn't count the games where I was learning the ropes. I've lost most of those, too.

If you perform equally with A and B variants, then I don't even know... I agree wholeheartedly with those who say that Stealth B is a hard contender with Engi B for the worst ship in the game.

Elhazzared wrote:I actually got lucky on the run because I managed to avoid 10 shots with a single cloak (yes I only needed 9), funny thing, it wasn't even on the mothership, it was on an elite cruiser which had 2 BL3.

So we have at least one common experience!
http://s24.postimg.org/kaxdo7bw5/212680 ... _00035.png

Elhazzared wrote:BTW your way of waiting for the enemy to take over a place to remove a hazard... Doesn't works!

It's not mine. I didn't even know you can do it. It might work with other hazards (never tried), but certainly not with Storms.

Elhazzared wrote:Sure it's not for granted but it's just asking for it, besides it's extra damage aside the damage the enemy will already inflict.

So... how many games are we talking?

Elhazzared wrote:If you get like 4 damage on hazard fight and zoltan ships. You are incredibly lucky! A zoltan alone should deal you some 3+ damage per voley and it should at very least get 2 volleys on you.

You have 30% chance to evade, and if you don't miss any shots, it is only 1.5 volleys. The other Zoltan (in the playthrough I linked to above) cost me 3 hull, this one took 4 hull. It averages on 4, more if they hit one of the critical systems.

Elhazzared wrote:Sure you can fire fast, but the engi can repair as fast as you can fire.

I think it is slower... at least, not enough to repair and charge the repaired weapon before you fire and disable it again (along with another one). I'll pay attention when I next come by engi crew on a mantis ship.

5thHorseman wrote:I have won the game on video with both ships (the DA-SR12 I got through the first sector twice, but a savegame-losing crash deleted the first one), so you can pick apart my strategies if you want. The Nesasio one was recorded early in my FTL career so may not be the best example of my current knowledge level.

Are you talking about this one? I'd like to review it, if I might.

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Minor edits

Elhazzared wrote:n the first sector you don't get 20 scrap at all in a fight, unless it's in a boarding.

You do, although it is rare. Also, on this run, I saved an outpost, which provided me with 31 (!) scrap. I also saved a civilian ship, but the ungrateful bastard ran away.

I checked out my first DA-SR12 run and was happy with it. I did make a mistake but it wasn't tactical. It was a typo

tl/dr: I gained 110 scrap total. I started with 10 and spent 70 (1 cloak and 1 power). Had I not made the mistake and instead attacked, I would likely have gotten 7-19 scrap instead of losing 17, so I could have exited the sector with 134-146 scrap. 350 by the end of sector 2 doesn't look all that impossible, really.

Sadly, I then lost my save because this looks like a run I could fairly easily have won.

Here's the full analysis:

Encounter 1: Ship on scanner. Auto-assault attacking an outpost. I chose to engage. He has a mini beam and ion 1. The beam hit me for 2 damage which was unavoidable. I killed him in 2 shots. Got 3 fuel, 1 drone, 9 scrap. The outpost had 3 fuel, 1 missile, and 15 scrap. Very good haul.
I'm at 21 fuel, 1 misile, 1 drone, and 34 scrap.
Encounter 2: Empty on scanner. No ships to see. Station with faint life signatures. I looked for survivors, got 7 scrap.
I'm at 20 fuel, 1 missile, 1 drone, 41 scrap.
Encounter 3: Ship on scanner. Mantis with Basic Laser and Artemis and a teleporter. No choice but to fight. I don't fight him in oxygen but air it out. Both shots miss on the cloak. I kill him, then the mantis. I get 3 fuel, 1 missile and 11 scrap.
I'm at 22 fuel, 2 missiles, 1 drone, 52 scrap.
I buy my 3rd cloak, which makes the rest of the game much easier.
Encounter 4: I pick a ship that forces a ship in the next encounter. It's a Rebel Fighter, unavoidable, trying to escape. Hvy and basic lasers and a teleporter. They send a guy into oxygen again so I air it out. He goes to doors, I air it out. He goes to weapons and I kill him. I also beam him to death without taking a shot. I get 1 fuel, 1 drone, and 12 scrap.
I'm at 22 fuel, 2 missiles, 2 drones, and 14 scrap.
Encounter 5: Distress call ship. Rebel Rigger trap. Missile and a beam drone. I cloak when it looks like it's going to hit weapons (now it looks more like cloak, still a big deal), which was the first target. The cloak avoided 6 shots, but the drone still got 2 shots in in, one on the cloak (no big deal). That damage was unavoidable. I get 1 fuel, 1 missile, and 17 scrap.
I'm at 22 fuel, 3 missile, 2 drones, and 31 scrap. I buy a power so I can have engines and air at the same time. Luxury!
Encounter 6: Ship, aimed so I have an option for another ship in Encounter 7. Rock Scout chasing a ship, offering me 3 fuel, 1 missile and 8 scrap. I attack. They have a BL2 and a basic laser. I cloak and kill even though they resisted one room's damage. I get 19 scrap from them but the other ship ran.
I'm at 21 fuel, 3 missiles, 2 drones, and 30 scrap.
Encounter 7: Ship, Rebel Rigger, Pirate Tuco. Luckily the drone's a defense drone. He also has a basic laser. I cloak and kill. I get 1 fuel, 1 drone, 11 scrap.
I'm at 21 fuel, 3 missiles, 3 drones, 41 scrap.
Encounter 8: I opt for an empty beacon instead of an asteroid field. Offer: -2 fueld +2 drone. I make the trade.
I'm at 18 fuel, 3 missiles, 5 drones, 41 scrap.
Encounter 9: I calculate I have 4 jumps left, so lock in my 4 jumps starting with a distress call ship. They want 3 fuel. I give it to them and get 19 scrap.
I'm at 14 fuel, 3 missiles, 5 drones and 6 scrap.
Encounter 10: ship. Mercenary. I accidentally scouted the sector, losing 17 scrap for nothing. We all make mistakes.
I'm at 13 fuel, 3 missiles, 5 drones, and 43 scrap.
Encounter 11: empty beacon, transport ship. I demand they surrender. Rigger with a Hvy Laser and Mini Beam. I cloak and kill. I get 2 fuel, 2 missiles, 7 scrap, an Anti-Personnel drone and a human.
I'm at 14 fuel, 5 missiles, 5 drones and 50 scrap.
Encounter 12: Exit beacon with no wasted jumps. Offered a trade, +7 fuel, -1 drone. I take it.
I'm at 20 fuel, 5 missiles, 5 drones, and 50 scrap.

Nevill wrote:

5thHorseman wrote:I have won the game on video with both ships (the DA-SR12 I got through the first sector twice, but a savegame-losing crash deleted the first one), so you can pick apart my strategies if you want. The Nesasio one was recorded early in my FTL career so may not be the best example of my current knowledge level.

Are you talking about this one? I'd like to review it, if I might.

That's the one. Feel free, but I vaguely remember watching it before starting my DA-SR12 run and being a bit embarrassed at myself.

EDIT: I just watched it. I am pretty sure I made at least one mistake - or at least a decision I don't agree with - in every single jump.

That's the one. Feel free, but I vaguely remember watching it before starting my DA-SR12 run and being a bit embarrassed at myself.

Hey, you've won. That already counts for something.

And the more mistakes you make, the more feedback I can give (as I pointed out, most people don't even realize they are making mistakes), so it's for the best. It wouldn't be too fun to comment on a perfect game, would it?

Nevill wrote:

And the more mistakes you make, the more feedback I can give (as I pointed out, most people don't even realize they are making mistakes), so it's for the best. It wouldn't be too fun to comment on a perfect game, would it?

Oh no I don't mind criticism. It's just that it won't help me much. It may help others though so by all means.

Maybe I should annotate the video, pointing out all the mistakes and why they're mistakes. Turn my shoddy early play into a learning tool.

As to rebels removing hazards, here is how it works...
Any hazards are indeed removed, BUT, big BUT here, even if there is no hazard, every nebula becomes an ion storm hazard when the rebels arrive. At least the rebels are predictable! You can plan accordingly...
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I'm staying out of the rest of this except to say you can board successfully with any race and the reward is greater scrap, hence why you do it. 350 may sound kinda high, but with Long-Range Scanners, I'm not going to rule it out.

Nevill wrote:

Elhazzared wrote:The input I'm providing comes from a lot mre than your 30 games with the ship since I grinded this ship to hell and back to get the B variant which I tested only once and although it generally it suffers from the same problems, it still feels a little better

Hey, I didn't count the games where I was learning the ropes. I've lost most of those, too.

If you perform equally with A and B variants, then I don't even know... I agree wholeheartedly with those who say that Stealth B is a hard contender with Engi B for the worst ship in the game.

Elhazzared wrote:I actually got lucky on the run because I managed to avoid 10 shots with a single cloak (yes I only needed 9), funny thing, it wasn't even on the mothership, it was on an elite cruiser which had 2 BL3.

So we have at least one common experience!
http://s24.postimg.org/kaxdo7bw5/212680 ... _00035.png

Elhazzared wrote:BTW your way of waiting for the enemy to take over a place to remove a hazard... Doesn't works!

It's not mine. I didn't even know you can do it. It might work with other hazards (never tried), but certainly not with Storms.

Elhazzared wrote:Sure it's not for granted but it's just asking for it, besides it's extra damage aside the damage the enemy will already inflict.

So... how many games are we talking?

Elhazzared wrote:If you get like 4 damage on hazard fight and zoltan ships. You are incredibly lucky! A zoltan alone should deal you some 3+ damage per voley and it should at very least get 2 volleys on you.

You have 30% chance to evade, and if you don't miss any shots, it is only 1.5 volleys. The other Zoltan (in the playthrough I linked to above) cost me 3 hull, this one took 4 hull. It averages on 4, more if they hit one of the critical systems.

Elhazzared wrote:Sure you can fire fast, but the engi can repair as fast as you can fire.

I think it is slower... at least, not enough to repair and charge the repaired weapon before you fire and disable it again (along with another one). I'll pay attention when I next come by engi crew on a mantis ship.

5thHorseman wrote:I have won the game on video with both ships (the DA-SR12 I got through the first sector twice, but a savegame-losing crash deleted the first one), so you can pick apart my strategies if you want. The Nesasio one was recorded early in my FTL career so may not be the best example of my current knowledge level.

Are you talking about this one? I'd like to review it, if I might.

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Minor edits

Elhazzared wrote:n the first sector you don't get 20 scrap at all in a fight, unless it's in a boarding.

You do, although it is rare. Also, on this run, I saved an outpost, which provided me with 31 (!) scrap. I also saved a civilian ship, but the ungrateful bastard ran away.

Well I never saw mor than 15 scrap being awared for a kill except of course, by boarding in sector 1. I've played several hundred games hence why I say it's impossible. The average I get per fight is around 11 or 12. I've also never played on easy, not even just to see how it was.

30% chance of evade sometimes play, but often doesn't. Evade also doesn't works against beams which will cut you for 2 or maybe 3 sections early on if you are unliky. Add a couple shots or a missile which you often won't dodge. Average 3 to 4 damage per round, assuming it has no drones or it will go to hell. Now at least you'll take 2 volleys whether you warp or not, so that averages in 6 to 8 damage, let's assume a dodge and average to 7. Now the zoltan shield is down, but can you still get your shot before taking more damage? Assuming you can then 7 damage was nor worth the fight at all. Now this is an average zolton on you, not one with drones and assuming you didn't took hits to the weapons. Again, if you run away because you did, sure you are cutting your losses, understandable, but you still wasted fuel, got damage and got nothing in return.

As for the ship with the engi, yes it won't repair and charge. My only point in this was that it will keep one weapon operational at all times, the others will keep on going between operational and damaged without firing but you'll always take fire from one of them.

And no, I don't consider experience with the stealth B to be of equal returns, better or worse. I have one game which I lost because I screwed up, messed up a cloak and took a fatal hit to the weapons. I'm just saying that the start feel a lot more stable for me because sector 1 and probably 2 as well you destroy ships in one shot. Your cloak at level 2 will make you pretty close to invunerableto everything safe from a zoltan ship or ships with drones which make you cloak right at the start. That's overall my problem with the stealth ships. I just don't accept that level of damage they get thrown by RNG. Any other ship (because all others have shields to start) will not suffer even a tenth because of drones... As the old saying goes. Suffer not a drone to live