Burst Laser Mk 3 is UP

General discussion about the game.
kissofpain
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:33 am

Burst Laser Mk 3 is UP

Postby kissofpain » Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:27 pm

For those that don't know what UP means it's underpowered.

Now here's a little math:

BL1: 2 power / 2 shots / 11s reload = 10,9 DPM
BL2: 2 power / 3 shots / 12s reload = 15 DPM
BL3: 4 power / 5 shots / 19s reload = 15.75 DPM

As you can see, BL3 only has a slight DPM edge over BL2 but for twice the power. For the same power I can use BL2 (starting weapon for Kestrel and Fed cruiser) and a BL1 that can usually be easily find at stores for 50 scrap and I get the same number of shots but far more firepower.

Now, considering it's a 4 power rare weapon I really think it should be more powerfull. Reduced reload time, fire 6 shots, pierce shields, 2 damage per shot, or cost to 3 power, any would do. But as it is right now, I really don't find a use for it, except for the rare case when I find it early game and I don't have better weapons...
Ruger10
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:31 am

Re: Burst Laser Mk 3 is UP

Postby Ruger10 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:38 pm

Good suggestion, I had the same feeling when I picked it up.... like, "this is it? Really?"

For the energy it requires, I'd say a simple tweek of 6 shots and 16 second reload time is sufficient.
wanderthe5th
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:42 am

Re: Burst Laser Mk 3 is UP

Postby wanderthe5th » Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:52 pm

It's useful on ships that only have three weapon slots in combination with the glaive beam (similar recharge times); on ships with four weapon slots it probably would be better to go with two burst lasers. I think the fact that the most powerful weapon in a line is so situational only adds to your point.

On the other hand, as a player I would rather go for one Mk. III if I see it than hope for two Mk. IIs.
Hissatsu
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:35 pm

Re: Burst Laser Mk 3 is UP

Postby Hissatsu » Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:54 pm

Its not that Burst III is UP, its that Burst II is OP. Really.

In the current game, all energy weapons (which game calls lasers which they arent) have similar firing times. It could seems that 11 seconds of Dual laser vs 19 of Burst III is huge difference, but truth is, it isnt - it only means that Dual will fire first. What is important is shield breaching power, and it depends solely on number of shots fired at once.

With Burst II, you get 3 shots per slot and per 2 energy. This is best possible ratio.
You may think - Dual Lasers offer 2 shots per 1 energy - but there can only be 4 slots for weapons, meaning you'll have to stick dual lasers x2, burst II and burst III, and this is the same as having 4x burst II, but lower rate of fire (since you wait for burst III to fire them all together). And if there are only 3 slots, its a waste (there is no good combo with dual lasers for 3 weapon slots that uses all 8 energy of the ship system).
You may think - Burst III offers 5 shots per 1 slot - but there is no ship with only 2 slots, and you can only have 8 weapon energy at one time, and thus, its not the best.

Now, some ships have only 3 slots for weapons - on those, Burst II is still THE best choice, but you have to stick something else into 3rd slot. Those who have 4 slots - Burst II is THE best for every single slot.

This weapon (Burst III) is balanced enough for enemies - since AI doenst know how to alpha strike, having one weapon with condensed power of 5 shots is a huge boon for it. But for players, yes, it is underwhelming. I think it should not require any tuning in its stats (after all, if you want to get 3-weapon-slot ship deal most damage, you do want burst III, its not as useless as fire beam) but instead, i think it should cost less. 110 is just nonsense for such a weapon.
kissofpain
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:33 am

Re: Burst Laser Mk 3 is UP

Postby kissofpain » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:22 pm

In terms of DPM 2xBL1 are still better than 1 BL3O.

Also If we think of its use - that of depleting enemy shield so we can fire our beam weapon of choice - its still not good enough, as one could use Missiles, Bombs or Ion Cannons to better effect. Besides, at later stages 5 shots will tend to miss a lot. Will probably work with Glaive due to Glaive having 3 damage.

Regarding 3 wep slot ships the argument doesnt stand, as BL3 and Glaive have 8 power togheter so they will only take 2 slots out of 3. And there are plenthy of other 2 power weps combinations that are better at depleting enemy shield for Glaive.

So as I said, I would only take BL3 if early game I don't have any other better choices.
Whale Cancer
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:28 pm

Re: Burst Laser Mk 3 is UP

Postby Whale Cancer » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:32 pm

kissofpain wrote:For those that don't know what UP means it's underpowered.

Now here's a little math:

BL1: 2 power / 2 shots / 11s reload = 10,9 DPM
BL2: 2 power / 3 shots / 12s reload = 15 DPM
BL3: 4 power / 5 shots / 19s reload = 15.75 DPM

As you can see, BL3 only has a slight DPM edge over BL2 but for twice the power. For the same power I can use BL2 (starting weapon for Kestrel and Fed cruiser) and a BL1 that can usually be easily find at stores for 50 scrap and I get the same number of shots but far more firepower.

Now, considering it's a 4 power rare weapon I really think it should be more powerfull. Reduced reload time, fire 6 shots, pierce shields, 2 damage per shot, or cost to 3 power, any would do. But as it is right now, I really don't find a use for it, except for the rare case when I find it early game and I don't have better weapons...


Weapons with long load times benefit more from reductions in load time. A pre-igniter, auto-reloader, or master gunner increases its power more than those factors would improve a lower mark burst laser.

More shots also allows more chances to hit and avoid evasion, smoothing out the damage curve.

I think it is balanced, more or less, as is.
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Gorlom
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:06 am

Re: Burst Laser Mk 3 is UP

Postby Gorlom » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:46 pm

I believe there is a matter of hitting the ceiling for how powerful weapons can be. burst lasers can't scale equally between mark one to two and two to three without mk III becoming ridiculous.

as already mentioned the 5 shots from mk 3 helps a lot more in getting through the shields then the 3 shot from mk 2. Mk 3s benefit over mk 2 isn't additional dpm, but the burst volley damage.
Sure you can fit more weapons to get the same effect but that is not the point. Being able to fit more then 10 shots (if the mk 3 only requires 3 energy bars you can fit 2 mk 3s + one more weapon) would most likely be far too powerful.

laser bolt weapons are more versatile than other weapons. ion weapons doesn't deal permanent damage, beams doesn't reduce shields, missiles costs ammo and can be shot down (an therefor entirely negated) by defense drones. Bomb weapons have different uses and I think more charge time than other weapons.
froz
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:30 pm

Re: Burst Laser Mk 3 is UP

Postby froz » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:53 pm

Weapons with long load times benefit more from reductions in load time. A pre-igniter, auto-reloader, or master gunner increases its power more than those factors would improve a lower mark burst laser.


Really? The game description for autor-reloader says it's 15% (or maybe 20%). I'm not sure how master gunner works, but I think it's also percentage. So long reload weapons would only benefit more from pre-igniter.


Overall I somehow agree with OP, but remember that enemy is using the same weapons. Increasing laser MkIII firepower would drastically increase game difficulty. That's why I wouldn't change it.
hborrgg
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:46 pm

Re: Burst Laser Mk 3 is UP

Postby hborrgg » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:56 pm

Mk 3 does have it's advantages, primarily that it provides a lot of firepower while using only one weapon-slot.
Whale Cancer
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:28 pm

Re: Burst Laser Mk 3 is UP

Postby Whale Cancer » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:37 pm

froz wrote:
Weapons with long load times benefit more from reductions in load time. A pre-igniter, auto-reloader, or master gunner increases its power more than those factors would improve a lower mark burst laser.


Really? The game description for autor-reloader says it's 15% (or maybe 20%). I'm not sure how master gunner works, but I think it's also percentage. So long reload weapons would only benefit more from pre-igniter.


Overall I somehow agree with OP, but remember that enemy is using the same weapons. Increasing laser MkIII firepower would drastically increase game difficulty. That's why I wouldn't change it.


A percentage of a higher number is higher than the same percentage of a lower number. Thus, higher reload time weapons gain more of a benefit from a percentage reduction in their load times.
Contribute to help save the Whales from their various diseases! *DELAYED* Should release the skeleton with the main quests attached by the end of the week (By NOV 9)! *DELAYED* Don't listen to my dates! Things always seem to come up!