On the topic of Modding

General discussion about the game.
Whale Cancer
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:28 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: On the topic of Modding

Postby Whale Cancer » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:14 pm

Justin wrote: Until such a time as a modding tool which doesn't involve the redistribution of our data files is created (by us or by you guys) there's no way we can fully encourage the current modding methods and a subforum is a form of endorsement. (As a comparison, imagine sending the entire soundtrack of Skyrim every time you want to share a sword you made)


But icepick, Grognak's mod manager fufills the criteria that Justin has laid out.

Take Kieve's obsidian cruiser. As an .ftl, it doesn't involve redistribution of the music, sprites, code, etc., of FTL. It is just the sprites that Kieve made and the coding (edit: his code). With .ftl files, you don't send the soundtrack when you send the sword.. er, ship.
Last edited by Whale Cancer on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Contribute to help save the Whales from their various diseases! *DELAYED* Should release the skeleton with the main quests attached by the end of the week (By NOV 9)! *DELAYED* Don't listen to my dates! Things always seem to come up!
icepick
Posts: 344
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:18 pm

Re: On the topic of Modding

Postby icepick » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:16 pm

Right. Well they are more than welcome to say that's fine. I'm just saying I think it's more complicated than "oh this tool exists."
User avatar
Kieve
Posts: 952
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:21 pm
Location: Low Orbit
Contact:

Re: On the topic of Modding

Postby Kieve » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:44 pm

Whale Cancer wrote:But icepick, Grognak's mod manager fufills the criteria that Justin has laid out.

Take Kieve's obsidian cruiser. As an .ftl, it doesn't involve redistribution of the music, sprites, code, etc., of FTL. It is just the sprites that Kieve made and the coding (edit: his code). With .ftl files, you don't send the soundtrack when you send the sword.. er, ship.


I appreciate the support, but in fairness to Justin and Matthew, that's an "easy" example, since it's completely original content. The issue gets a little fuzzier when you start repurposing existing assets. For instance - and don't misunderstand me because I'm fully in support of your project - the Foundation of the Federation stuff is re-using existing ships. It's a huge rework of the original game and I imagine even to make it GMM-compatible you'll have to include a fair number of ship sprites that are more or less pulled right from resource.dat and rotated (also aligned properly in XMLs, have had their rooms reworked, etc.). I don't mean to turn your own work against you at all, particularly after the show of support, but I hope you can see the point I'm making.

I think support for modding is greatly needed, and as far as I can see we've already met Justin's criteria, but I do understand, one artist to another, that having your work reused and redistributed doesn't always rub the right way.
On the other hand, given that modding is happening anyway and will continue to happen, it'd be much smarter to lay down some guidelines and moderate it, retaining a measure of control and say in the matter.
icepick
Posts: 344
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:18 pm

Re: On the topic of Modding

Postby icepick » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:52 pm

Kieve wrote:On the other hand, given that modding is happening anyway and will continue to happen, it'd be much smarter to lay down some guidelines and moderate it, retaining a measure of control and say in the matter.

The "it's going to happen anyway" argument is irrelevant. The people that are "going to do it anyway" are going to do what they want to do regardless of moderation or control methods.

I don't think the devs are against modding anyway. I'm pretty sure they are for it, they just need time to plan for it and assess options. This wasn't a game that was built for modding, so it will probably take a ridiculous effort to convert it to do so. It might be worth it to just start FTL2 ready for modding from the start.

Know what I'm sayin?
Icehawk78
Posts: 230
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:55 pm

Re: On the topic of Modding

Postby Icehawk78 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:01 pm

icepick wrote:Right. Well they are more than welcome to say that's fine. I'm just saying I think it's more complicated than "oh this tool exists."

I'm curious as to your thinking on why the existing Mod Manager might not match the criteria laid out in the first post. As mentioned, there is exactly 0 redistribution of any game resources required for use in the Mod Manager, whatsoever.

As Kieve mentioned above, I'd certainly agree that there's a bit of a grey area with regards to things like "I'm making a mod that reuses game resources", which could then be redistributing, but it sounded like initially you were saying the mere act of packing/unpacking the .dat files (which is done entirely on the end-user's machine, with no dat file redistribution) was a murky area, which is a more confusing position to take.

Any chance you'd mind clarifying your thinking a bit?
Whale Cancer
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:28 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: On the topic of Modding

Postby Whale Cancer » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:11 pm

Kieve wrote:
Whale Cancer wrote:But icepick, Grognak's mod manager fufills the criteria that Justin has laid out.

Take Kieve's obsidian cruiser. As an .ftl, it doesn't involve redistribution of the music, sprites, code, etc., of FTL. It is just the sprites that Kieve made and the coding (edit: his code). With .ftl files, you don't send the soundtrack when you send the sword.. er, ship.


I appreciate the support, but in fairness to Justin and Matthew, that's an "easy" example, since it's completely original content. The issue gets a little fuzzier when you start repurposing existing assets. For instance - and don't misunderstand me because I'm fully in support of your project - the Foundation of the Federation stuff is re-using existing ships. It's a huge rework of the original game and I imagine even to make it GMM-compatible you'll have to include a fair number of ship sprites that are more or less pulled right from resource.dat and rotated (also aligned properly in XMLs, have had their rooms reworked, etc.). I don't mean to turn your own work against you at all, particularly after the show of support, but I hope you can see the point I'm making.

I think support for modding is greatly needed, and as far as I can see we've already met Justin's criteria, but I do understand, one artist to another, that having your work reused and redistributed doesn't always rub the right way.
On the other hand, given that modding is happening anyway and will continue to happen, it'd be much smarter to lay down some guidelines and moderate it, retaining a measure of control and say in the matter.


Oh, absolutely. I agree with you 100%. I'm just a bit... perplexed? Sure, perplexed. Perplexed that the devs aren't already aware of Grognak's mod manager and how it fulfills their criteria (at least in regard to mods like yours).

However, in good, healthy, active modding communities this sort of stuff happens all the time. Ex. Civilization IV; we want some different kind of Romans so we delete the spear in the Roman models hand and add a gladius. Most companies tolerate this kind of stuff (Even blizzard, a very litigious company, in regards to sites like "The Hive"). Why? Because it basically means free community created "DLC" that gives people are reason to keep playing (sometimes years, and year, and years after release).

I think it would be utterly insane for a company - and a %2000 kickstarter funded indie one, at that - to not encourage, or at least allow, modding of this type.

If they choose to clamp down and not allow stuff like my Foundation of the Federation mod. Well, they are certainly within their right (though I would prefer being told this sooner rather than later)... but I can see a lot of scorn from the community, if they were to do so. I definitely don't feel the game has the depth to survive for very long without modding. I mean, I started modding because I beat the game a number of times and it came out not too long ago.

Also, if they are anti-modding to the point of not wanting a subforum... why don't they start deleting the mod threads? We've already conveniently labelled them.
Contribute to help save the Whales from their various diseases! *DELAYED* Should release the skeleton with the main quests attached by the end of the week (By NOV 9)! *DELAYED* Don't listen to my dates! Things always seem to come up!
icepick
Posts: 344
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:18 pm

Re: On the topic of Modding

Postby icepick » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:14 pm

Icehawk78 wrote:Any chance you'd mind clarifying your thinking a bit?

icepick wrote:The tool that does exist unpackages and repackages the games data files. This is a pretty big gray area, really. I'm pretty sure this would count as violating subset games' copyright on the assets. (though I don't claim any expertise)

^^ This was my thinking. It's fine to do this on your own, but redistributing tools to do it is kinda iffy isn't it?

I thought it was. I could be totally wrong. (shrug)

Also, if they are anti-modding

You assume a lot. They never said anything like this.
Whale Cancer
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:28 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: On the topic of Modding

Postby Whale Cancer » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:15 pm

icepick wrote: This wasn't a game that was built for modding, so it will probably take a ridiculous effort to convert it to do so. It might be worth it to just start FTL2 ready for modding from the start.


As someone who has been modding this game quite a bit, I can tell you it basically is functionally moddable as is. Moving a few functions from to the XML to give more options wouldn't - I imagine - be much of a headache. I think the guys working on Overdrive could probably go into this in more depth, as I'm just a hobbyist and they seem to really know their stuff.
Contribute to help save the Whales from their various diseases! *DELAYED* Should release the skeleton with the main quests attached by the end of the week (By NOV 9)! *DELAYED* Don't listen to my dates! Things always seem to come up!
Whale Cancer
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:28 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: On the topic of Modding

Postby Whale Cancer » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:16 pm

icepick wrote:
Also, if they are anti-modding

You assume a lot. They never said anything like this.


Dude, quote the rest of that sentence. Do it. Look back and do it.

This is just a matter of cleaning the forum up, as it makes perfect sense to not have the mod threads cluttering general discussion.

Edit: This 'add foe' button is pretty neat!
Last edited by Whale Cancer on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Contribute to help save the Whales from their various diseases! *DELAYED* Should release the skeleton with the main quests attached by the end of the week (By NOV 9)! *DELAYED* Don't listen to my dates! Things always seem to come up!
icepick
Posts: 344
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:18 pm

Re: On the topic of Modding

Postby icepick » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:19 pm

Have you ever actually coded anything? Or changed or updated it? It's never trivial.

Not wanting a subforum does not mean anti-modding. They've explained their reasoning perfectly clearly. You're fine to disagree, but don't read more into it than what's there.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 45 guests