[Squad] Hydro Leviathans

[narD]

version 0.05 Runs Video.

1) Hard 2 Island
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8wbL50maPk
2) Hard 4 Island
https://youtu.be/ulRe3RZdEF4?t=807

[tosx]

I've updated the all of my squad mods to have a full suite of achievements (Zero Dawn already had the basic achievements, but I added island/perfect ones).

Completing a squad's achievements unlocks a minor secret! Not as intricate as Zero Dawn's, but hopefully fun.

[narD]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1TZiQp4XHg

30K video, I've been thinking a lot about it, and it's a long stretch, but I hope you get something.

What I felt while playing is that the firepower of the squared itself is a little bit lacking. I couldn't get rid of the enemy bosses and that's what I'm sorry about.

[tosx]

Fair comment. I've gotten sidetracked and haven't been able to do a lot of my own runs with them recently.

My main hesitation with giving them more damage is A) they have so much insta-kill capability, and B) the Cargo mech can dump things like bosses in the way of other attacks. Granted, some Vek types don't work as well for that (though Steel Judoka have that weakness too?).

Out of curiosity, if the Propeller (2-core target-through-water) upgrade for the Surge mech switched to:
A) 1-core +1 damage
B) 2-core +1 damage or
C) 3-core +2 damage
...do you think you'd get more use out of it? I'll admit I haven't used Propeller very often; I didn't use the old +damage upgrade when it existed in early versions of the mod, but I didn't play it that many times.

[ijocks]

I think the propeller is a cool mechanic, but I only ever end up getting it towards the end after I have maxed out most other upgrades, perhaps making it baseline, then include a damage upgrade? or do you think it would be too strong that way? The only thing I don't want is for the mechanic to disappear because it is a unique part of the weapon that sets it apart from others.

[narD]

There is certainly a strong part in that it can deal with the enemy immediately.
You can eat off the troublesome enemy temporarily or immediately kill the "ground-type" enemy through Prime's upgrade.

However, the most troubling part of my personal play is the "flight" enemy's handling.
As you know, they are "flying" and are unable to be immediately treated using water.

If they're lucky enough to sit on the water tiles, it's possible to put damage on them with a prime weapon,
However, that's not something that happens often.
So I'm not sure if the upgrade will solve the problem by adding the amount of damage you mentioned.

If I dare to write down a few suggestions.
(* I'd like you to bear with me as long as you can.)

Prime)
- A function that could harm a flying enemy?
- Or how about giving some basic damage?
- This can only damage targets on water, only flying bosses. And they don't move very well over the water.
- I think we need to think more about modifying upgrades.


Ranged)
- What if the basic damage is "2".
Like, Rusting Hulk Squad.
- And how about adding "ice" tiles to the attribute upgrade for range weapons?
(It sounds like an unusual sight, but it's going to be fun.)

Science)
- What if you added a "Push" upgrade?
So, like Leap Mech's attack, It takes a short leap, and push around four tiles, and then eat up the enemy
It's certainly useful to eat, but it's not enough to create variables.

I think that's maybe 1 or 2 core's appropriate.

[tosx]

Appreciate all the suggestions!

ijocks: I like the Propeller upgrade but I wouldn't really have any heartburn removing it, either; if it almost never gets used, there's not much value in having it (other features have gone this way since early versions; the Hydro mech used to throw water it sucked up).

narD: I think most of those suggestions would change them more than I care to, at least not without a bunch of games of my own. Specific issues:

Surge
- Harming flying enemies: I think that's too specific a solution to the squad's main weakness. The other 2 mechs can deal with flying, Surge can still push them around like a champ, and it can damage them if the other mechs get them over water.
- Giving Surge some basic damage: At that point it's comparing way too favorably to the Prime punch.

Hydro
- 2 damage would compare incredibly well to most other ranged mechs; it can already deal up to 3 without upgrades, if you're lucky. Rusting Hulks' ranged mech is one of the most powerful.
- Ice is another overpowered problem-solver, I don't really want to muddy their theme or give them another tool that can instantly shut down problems, given they have 2 (water/cargo).

Cargo
- A push upgrade would let it deal with more than just 1-2 problems per turn, but it would also make the move less clean. Still, within the realm of possibility.


---


My current thoughts for things I could see trying, from ~minor to ~major:
1. Increase the drain bonus damage on Hydro from +1 to +2. (Gets extra damage out of water tiles without enemies being on them.)
2. Change Surge's Propeller upgrade to a 1-core, +2 water damage upgrade. (Bosses still tricky to deal with, but only 1-2 good hits needed.)
3. Cargo's 2-core upgrade becomes "push tiles on either side of you when you land".

[Rithaniel]

I would actually recommend two changes:

Change the surge mech's propeller upgrade to one that has the effect of "Deals damage to targets even if they aren't above/in water," to mirror the "ignores obstacles" upgrade. Might also want to make it be a 3 core upgrade, if you go down this route.
Add +1 bonus damage when draining water. This idea makes the desire to seek water much more potent. I like it.

[narD]

I think it's a pretty good and appropriate correction.
If you apply everything I say, it's certainly possible that the concept of this squat will become dull.

If you don't mind, could you send me a decord message if it's modified? (@narD)
And, after then, I'd be very happy to play with ONLY the basic weapons.
(* as you know, starting Pilot is Issac Jones )
With an AWESOME basic weapon, I will achieve 30K this time.

[tosx]

I have no real heartburn buffing the Hydro Mech.

Rithaniel, that's a fairly elegant suggestion, but I do worry it's on the strong side. With the water damage "always on" it's doing slightly less than max Prime Punch damage, but also pushing 2 additional tiles and making water. It also removes something I considered a feature and part of their theme: using water to indirectly damage enemies who normally aren't affected by it.

I think I'd still be more inclined to try the +2 water damage buff first (which I'd probably start at 2 cores, possibly by just dumping it into the Propeller upgrade).