This game makes Dark Souls seem easy--what's wrong? Help?

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afedyuki
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: This game makes Dark Souls seem easy--what's wrong? Help

Postby afedyuki » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:55 am

Indeed. However it's not exactly reasonable to expect a noob to know how teleporter works. Come to think of it, I should have added:

5) Teleporter description should mention that you get about 50% better loot if you "capture" an enemy ship instead of blowing it up.

mrguy888 wrote:
afedyuki wrote:4) It is not clear anywhere in bomb's description (unlike missiles) that they ignore shields. It is also not clear that you can't dodge beams.

It does mention that the bomb actually teleports into the ship which I understood perfectly as being shield bypassing but not zoltan shield bypassing.


The game is really lacking in some ingame explanations. The wiki is pretty good in explaining what things to at least but not everyone wants to or knows to look for a wiki.
Observato
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:25 am

Re: This game makes Dark Souls seem easy--what's wrong? Help

Postby Observato » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:17 am

mrguy888 wrote:You should really rethink your cloak priority, observato. The ability to dodge the enemy's first missiles lets you take way less damage since if you are playing well there shouldn't be a lot of ships that can take a second shot. Level one cloak happens to be perfectly timed to let you dodge every power surge on the boss. Cloak is well worth the 1 power and 150 scrap.


Probably a good idea, considering how much I went on about how Breach Missiles suck. Cloak is my preferred missile counter, much better than the drone or engine evade. Thing is, systems don't seem to appear in the store that often when I have low engines, and 150 scrap is a whole lot to find and hold on to in early sectors. By the time I actually find cloak, I'd have the higher engines already. It's still a good pickup though, cloak is tremendously powerful.''

(Irony is though, Breach Missiles get the most notoriety, but in my experience it's actually Artemis missiles that hurt me most. Cloak doesn't help so much there.)
Maury Markowitz
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:04 pm

Re: This game makes Dark Souls seem easy--what's wrong? Help

Postby Maury Markowitz » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:19 pm

Raytiger3 wrote:it's hard, but you're probably playing for 5 hours and quitting the game, like every other 10 year old that have played a permadeath game.


I'm 22 hours in and only seen the mothership twice. I get killed in about 15 seconds. I have *absolutely* no idea how to improve my odds.

The issue, for me, is one that is touched upon in other replies above, *experience*. Basically because the game mechanics are random (deliberately), and the game doesn't display its internals, experience isn't gained in the same way as other games.

In a flight simulator there's a basic physics you can learn, and once you do you can use that understanding to try new strategies in the game. In WoW, one can loose a fight but see something happen that gives you a clue as to how to improve on the next attempt. In FTL, I don't see anything that gives me the slightest clue what to do.

For instance, in my very last game in the Engi ship (I like the ion gun) I finally started to get my ship up to snuff. I was *barely* able to get upgraded pilotage (which I should do, right?), level-3 shields, and *just* got my first laser. Then 6 of the ant-things beamed into my door control and health bay and proceeded to kill everyone. They also took all my weapons and drones offline at the start of the encounter, so I was literally unable to do anything back to their ship.

Now I'm sure there's something I could have done. Is there a way to get control over my weapons back? Is there a strategy the ants are using in terms of where they beam in? Is there anything I can do to stop that strategy from working? I have no idea, and the game mechanics didn't

So obviously there is some strategy that improves your odds, as your own statistics, and others, note. But the utter randomness of it all makes it difficult for me to connect the dots. So I lose over and over and over again. And I learn nothing from the losses.

Raytiger3 wrote:you should've waited and seen some reviews/gameplays first, before buying.


Game reviews?!? Seriously? Now THERE'S a broken mechanic!

Raytiger3 wrote:while trying this game, you earn experience and get better. Trust me.


Sorry, but this certainly hasn't been my experience. I don't think I've improved more than 25% in 22 hours.
Danby
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: This game makes Dark Souls seem easy--what's wrong? Help

Postby Danby » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:40 pm

postman wrote:OP: Your post makes me think that this is not the right game for you.

I enjoy challenges and like hard games and puzzles. Having played lots of real roguelikes (I don't consider FTL to be a roguelike just because it has permadeath), there's much to be said about player experience being the takeaway between sessions. All things considered, though, losing a game of FTL when you've put < 2 hours into it is nothing like losing a roguelike where you've put 20-40 hours into a character.

I've played this game for about a week and now beat it six times with five different ships, 3 on easy and 3 on normal. My first win on Easy was after about 20-25 hours. Easy actually is easy compared to normal. And the Kestrel is a good ship. A few big tips that made a difference for me (no idea if you do them already though):

1) Use PAUSE often. Evaluate what is going on, look at your opponent's ship, plan accordingly. Get hit big? Pause and think of your next move. A no-pause run is an incredible challenge.
2) Ditch autofire. I relied on autofire too much at first. Time your shots to work together.
3) Learn to use your power and carefully reroute it as needed. I turn off Med and sometimes Oxygen when I'm not using them. For example, if you have improved Oxygen, you can usually turn it off during a fight and then boost it up for a quick refill before jumping.

I find it hard to believe that you can't at least try the Engi A since you get it at, what, Sector 5?

The two constructive thoughts I took from your criticism are:
1) Making Easy-->Normal, Normal-->Hard, and adding a "real" Easy mode could be helpful for new players. Though no roguelikes I've played have an easy mode. ;)
2) Multiple save slots would be nice, though other players have already pointed out that the game is short and it's not really necessary.


I think this is partly what OP is talking about though. I've played 44 hours of this game on easy and have yet to beat it once. I've also used multiple ships, but almost always seem to get screwed over by some random event on playthroughs where i WAS good enough to probably kill the boss. On the 3 times where i got to the stage 3 boss fight, i didn't have enough men left/hull left/weapons left to be able to finish it off. Especially the hull. The repair stations are always at the far side of the map. The last time i fought it, i had a store 1 jump away(so i was able to repair my hull which was at less than 1/3rd), but the boss was also 1 jump away from rebel base :(

My only advice to OP is just to enjoy the game for what it is. Its flawed but fun(and hairpullingly frustrating). There is a no rebel fleet mod kicking around somewhere that sorta worked for me. It gives you sector 1 with no rebels anyways, and a 1 random other sector, usually 3. the extra scrap definitely helps. Also there are things you can do to minimise danger in the random situations. Like venting most of the ship during the solar flare battles and things like that(note that this can sometimes screw you over if you o2 gets hit ;) )
LazyMonk
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: This game makes Dark Souls seem easy--what's wrong? Help

Postby LazyMonk » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:43 pm

Maury Markowitz, there is nothing broken about finding out how a game is like before buying it.
The game inst broken just because it was not what you expected by looking at the webpage.

I got my first victory this week with a mantis B ship. At first i wasnt very good with the ship, and i was barely able to get to sector 8. Since i beated the game with it, i got another victory with the same ship and then another with the mantis a. 2 of these victories were in a row.

I am no longer playing with mantis ships because i am now looking for another challenge.
I already know i can beat the game with it so now i am trying other ships.
I am yet to get to sector 8 using the Engi A ship. I am learning as i go, and maybe in a week or two i will be moving to another ship looking for another challenge.

Its clear to me that skills plays a decisive role on winning.
Yes there is luck involved but you have to learn and play with the cards you get.

FTL is described as a rogue-like like. Have you played a rogue-like before? Did you knew what a rogue-like was?
Most of the people that complain about this game, complain about features that characteristics of the genre and then claim that because of it the game is flawed.

That makes no sense, i am not going to buy a fifa game and then complain that its all about soccer and that the game didnt explain to me what an offside was.

This new generation of gamers have been spoiled with easy, hand-holding games and now complain each time the game over screen comes up. If you cant learn from your defeats thats your fault. Its not the game fault.
We all have been learning from our mistakes, why cant you?
Maury Markowitz
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:04 pm

Re: This game makes Dark Souls seem easy--what's wrong? Help

Postby Maury Markowitz » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:09 am

LazyMonk wrote:Maury Markowitz, there is nothing broken about finding out how a game is like before buying it.
The game inst broken just because it was not what you expected by looking at the webpage.


No no no no no! Its the reviews that are broken, not the process of reading them!

Did you know that something like 80% of all games are rated 7 out of 10, or better?

Just stop and think about that for a moment.

What does "5" mean in such a system? Apparently nothing.

The entire games reviews process is so hopelessly skewed as to be useless. And I'm not the only one that thinks so.

LazyMonk wrote:Its clear to me that skills plays a decisive role on winning.


I'm sure it does, but the problem is that the game doesn't explain what those skills are. This is very important, so let me bold it…

FTL's game mechanics do not inherently indicate how to improve your gameplay. (to me)

Let's contrast. Another legendarily difficult game is Outpost 2. This is an RTS that lets you play a series of missions from one of two sides. Very early in the mission progression for one of the two sides is a mission that is widely commented as being the most difficult mission in any game ever. I played it about 25 or 30 times before I beat it.

Now here's the thing. Each time I played it, there was a clear indication of something that I had done wrong, or could do to improve. For instance, it becomes obvious over time that earthquakes are occurring primarily north of your base, near the mines. These can destroy your ore trucks, which is very annoying because you generally need the ore from the destroyed truck to have enough ore to build a new one. But as you watch this happen, in horror, you can see that's its primarily on the north side… ohh, and there's another mining location on the south…

Luck still plays a *major* factor, and even after I learned all the tricks I still had to play it several times until the luck ran in my favour. But each time there was progression. The game indicated, slyly, ways that you could improve your gameplay.

In FTL I still have not a single clue what I'm doing. I suspect that it is presenting hints to me, and that I simply don't see them. Why I don't see these hints is the question.

LazyMonk wrote:FTL is described as a rogue-like like. Have you played a rogue-like before? Did you knew what a rogue-like was?


I played through versions of rouge for the Mac when it was still QuickDraw.

Again, the problem here is not the difficulty or the randomness. It is that the game isn't telling me how to improve. There is nothing in the mechanics of the game that indicates "right" from "wrong". To me, *everything* seems utterly random. I win an invasion attempt, I lose an invasion attempt, in both cases I have no idea what my actions did to the outcome.

LazyMonk wrote:We all have been learning from our mistakes, why cant you?


That is precisely my question.
mrguy888
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:33 pm

Re: This game makes Dark Souls seem easy--what's wrong? Help

Postby mrguy888 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:40 am

Maury Markowitz wrote:In a flight simulator... In FTL, I don't see anything that gives me the slightest clue what to do.

You need to look harder. Do you find missiles are a frequent source of heavy damage? You can figure from that that you need more for missile defence. Do you find you have trouble piercing 3 and 4 shield enemies? You need to save more scrap and visit more stores to get more weapons. While you never get quite as much as would be ideal you should get a much better grasp of what you need to focus on improving at any given time if you make a point of paying attention.

For instance, in my very last game in the Engi ship (I like the ion gun)... so I was literally unable to do anything back to their ship.

This example is clearly exaggerated too heavily to give any advice on. You need to be more realistic about situations when you think about them if you want to improve.

So obviously there is some strategy that improves your odds, as your own statistics, and others, note. But the utter randomness of it all makes it difficult for me to connect the dots. So I lose over and over and over again. And I learn nothing from the losses.

If you exaggerate all your losses like the one you mentioned that would be the reason you are having a tough time connecting the dots. 'The maps and what items you get are random but the effect they have are not and neither are the approximate difficulty of the enemies in each sector. How much you need to get by never really changes and after 22 hours you should have seen pretty much everything this game can throw at you.
postman
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:03 am

Re: This game makes Dark Souls seem easy--what's wrong? Help

Postby postman » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:58 am

I've beat this game about a dozen times in ~50 hours, with the first 2-3 wins on Easy at the 20-25 hour mark. What is so difficult to understand about game mechanics? I find that the weapons descriptions are fine to get how they work and simple game experience led me to understand things like "Bombs teleport but can miss, missiles bypass shields, beams never miss but can be cut back by shields" or develop strategies like bringing down the pilot if missing a lot, etc...

I can watch my own stats and see how my own ship is affected by all sorts of weapons. It's not hard to draw conclusions on the nature of the game mechanics from that. And playing a variety of ships has taught me the best way to use different strategies. Stealth B, for example, plays very differently than the Kestrel... but it's currently my #2 high score. :)
mrguy888
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:33 pm

Re: This game makes Dark Souls seem easy--what's wrong? Help

Postby mrguy888 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:05 am

Maury Markowitz wrote:What does "5" mean in such a system? Apparently nothing.

The entire games reviews process is so hopelessly skewed as to be useless. And I'm not the only one that thinks so.

Yes and no. I really like watching youtube videos on a game before I buy it. I find that gives a fairly accurate idea on whether the game is worth getting.

so let me bold it…

I'll unbold it for obvious reasons. :lol:

FTL's game mechanics do not inherently indicate how to improve your gameplay. (to me)

Let's contrast. Another legendarily difficult game is Outpost 2.

I wondered why I haven't heard of this game. At the same time as I found out, I discovered where that earlier "5" came from. :lol:

Now here's the thing… ohh, and there's another mining location on the south…

I have some examples of FTL equivalents in my last post. You examine why you lose and make sure you don't make the same mistakes next time.

Again, the problem here is not the difficulty or the randomness. It is that the game isn't telling me how to improve. There is nothing in the mechanics of the game that indicates "right" from "wrong". To me, *everything* seems utterly random. I win an invasion attempt, I lose an invasion attempt, in both cases I have no idea what my actions did to the outcome.

Everything has a set reaction. Double lasers will always shoot two lasers for one power. Lasers will always do the same thing. Missiles will always do the same thing. Sure, events randomly select an outcome from a few possibilities but there is always a safe option. Sure, the items you get to choose from are random but there are almost always enough to choose from to win the game. Sure, evasion is random but you get lots of shots and things will go your way eventually. Randomness has a far smaller effect than most complain about. If you can't see the constants you need to pay closer attention to what is going on when you play.
LazyMonk
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: This game makes Dark Souls seem easy--what's wrong? Help

Postby LazyMonk » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:05 am

Maury Markowitz, i do agree with you that many game sites and magazines offer very flawed reviews. Still there are some more independent sources that do give honest feedback.

When my ship blows up i always consider what i could have done differently. At first my strategy seemed perfect to me, but then i start thinking:

"Maybe my priority should not have been disabling his drone systems but his weapons."
"Maybe i should have rerouted the power from my weapons to my shields and engine and flee from that hopeless battle."

Meditate on what you could have done differently.

Today i had a tough battle near the sun. After i managed to defeat my enemy and the fire on my ship i jumped to another beacon. An unknown beacon, while i still had 3 members of my crew at the medbay and my weapons at orange.
I wanted to get out of the range of that sun as quickly as possible. But i was reckless and picked an unknown beacon instead of going back to a previous one that i knew it was safe from enemies. Where i could repaired my weapons safely. But i didnt do that, and i paid the price. A rebel ship was waiting for me. The time i wasted reorganizing my crew and reparing my weapons was enough to give the rebels the edge they needed to defeat me.

This was an obvious and stupid mistake on my behalf, but there are many more subtles choices in the game.

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