Are stores making the game too luck dependent?

General discussion about the game.
NekoApocalypse
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 2:15 pm

Are stores making the game too luck dependent?

Postby NekoApocalypse » Thu May 22, 2014 1:08 am

I've seen several times when the game instant-kill me with RNG like sending 4 mantis aboard my ship in sector 2 who destroyed door control and oxygen supply right away etc. etc.

But that only happens before sector 4. When the game really decided to kill you with stores it's really a pain in the back.

Last day I had a game with rock cruiser A which comes with missile weaponry only. For the first 6 sectors, 7 stores in total I didn't find a SINGLE LASER WEAPON and no damage dealing beams (except for anti-bio beam, once), no combat drones or beam drones(the only combat drone comes with the drone control system, which only happened once). All I got was ions, bombs, stunners, repair drones, augmentations, things I don't need. Eventually I ran out of missiles and had to die like the game really decided to kill me.

It happens quite often when you simply cannot find the right equipment, like flying a stealth cruiser but cannot find a shield system, flying all the way to Sector 7 without any missile weapons or finding stores selling mind control system three times in a row when you desperately want a hacking system. But sometimes it's just insane like selling you non-lethal weapon 4/5 of the time or keep selling you missiles all the way to the end.

This is getting even worse with AE turned on. It seems the new equipment have the same chance of appearing in stores like the old ones, making some of the most useful stuff (shields system, combat drone MKI, burst laser MKII, Artemis, breach bomb etc.) extremely rare but only to replace them with some okey stuff (like stun weapons, I.intruder) and some really situation dependent stuff (Vulcan, laser charger, ion charger, chain burst laser etc.).
project_mercy
Posts: 117
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:31 am

Re: Are stores making the game too luck dependent?

Postby project_mercy » Thu May 22, 2014 2:05 am

The reduction in availability of useful weapons is a combination of things. AE added a bunch of stuff, but most of it is designed to improve the AI, and is mostly somewhere between mediocre and terrible for the player. The stores can randomly have 2-4 panes now to make up for this, except that's adding a second roll/randomness to each shop on whether that shop has something useful in it. And finally, the new maps result in more long dead-ends, which the shops seem keen on plopping down in, making it not uncommon that you jump into a green sector only to find you can't actually get to any of the shops.

So, you could point a finger at shops and say its their fault. You could just as easily point a finger at charge ions, repair bombs, anti-drone drones, etc and say they're equally at fault.

As for whether this makes the game "too luck dependent" that would depend a lot on your standing on the game's basic design. Some people don't like the game to be normalized. They like it to randomly screw them. It would be nice if there was a switch/option you could turn on for normalizing system maps, shops, etc. It would be a happy medium between people looking for a good game, and people looking for another roguelike.
NekoApocalypse
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 2:15 pm

Re: Are stores making the game too luck dependent?

Postby NekoApocalypse » Thu May 22, 2014 8:29 am

project_mercy wrote:The reduction in availability of useful weapons is a combination of things. AE added a bunch of stuff, but most of it is designed to improve the AI, and is mostly somewhere between mediocre and terrible for the player. The stores can randomly have 2-4 panes now to make up for this, except that's adding a second roll/randomness to each shop on whether that shop has something useful in it. And finally, the new maps result in more long dead-ends, which the shops seem keen on plopping down in, making it not uncommon that you jump into a green sector only to find you can't actually get to any of the shops.

So, you could point a finger at shops and say its their fault. You could just as easily point a finger at charge ions, repair bombs, anti-drone drones, etc and say they're equally at fault.

As for whether this makes the game "too luck dependent" that would depend a lot on your standing on the game's basic design. Some people don't like the game to be normalized. They like it to randomly screw them. It would be nice if there was a switch/option you could turn on for normalizing system maps, shops, etc. It would be a happy medium between people looking for a good game, and people looking for another roguelike.


By saying that the game is 'too luck dependent' I meant that sometimes the session was definitely doomed from the beginning but you simply don't know it until you're almost dead. That is not fun.

The problem with AE is that there is too many combinations that can make an 'almost impossible' game no matter how well the player is playing.It is not about the improved AI or variety of weapons, but the bad combination of equipment supplied to the player, like it is very clear that you cannot win a session without any laser/beam weapons or attack drones. The game does nothing to balance the chance that you get a terribly bad supply of equipment so that there is quite a good chance that the game is unplayable.

The game could have done something to improve this, like improve the RNG to prevent the same wares from appearing in the stores over and over and over again, but up until now, it seems almost completely random.
Dirka
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Are stores making the game too luck dependent?

Postby Dirka » Thu May 22, 2014 8:57 am

NekoApocalypse wrote:All I got was ions, bombs, stunners, repair drones, augmentations, things I don't need. Eventually I ran out of missiles and had to die like the game really decided to kill me.


What about Hacking, Teleporter, Mind Control? Any of those, combined with Ions/Stunners/Bombs and some sparsely used missiles would allow you to go for crew kills. Especially with the Bio-Beam in tow.

At the very least this should allow you to be more economical with your missiles, since the only ship you absolutely must destroy is the flagship.

I actually think that the AE content has made the game less luck dependent, since there are now many more viable combinations and strategies.
NekoApocalypse
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 2:15 pm

Re: Are stores making the game too luck dependent?

Postby NekoApocalypse » Thu May 22, 2014 11:10 am

Dirka wrote:
NekoApocalypse wrote:All I got was ions, bombs, stunners, repair drones, augmentations, things I don't need. Eventually I ran out of missiles and had to die like the game really decided to kill me.


What about Hacking, Teleporter, Mind Control? Any of those, combined with Ions/Stunners/Bombs and some sparsely used missiles would allow you to go for crew kills. Especially with the Bio-Beam in tow.

At the very least this should allow you to be more economical with your missiles, since the only ship you absolutely must destroy is the flagship.

I actually think that the AE content has made the game less luck dependent, since there are now many more viable combinations and strategies.


If I knew I won't get a single lethal laser/beam/drones I would consider hacking and MC. I did got a crew teleporter but it was already sector 5 where enemy ships generally have ~30% evasion and a medbay/clone bay.

If I didn't use my missiles economically I wouldn't have made it past sector five. And I have to kill ships because no kills = no scrap.

For the more versatile ships (e.g. the Kestrel, Lanius cruiser) AE is giving more possibilities, but for the more themed ships (for example rock A) it's eliminating the chances for them to show their strength.
itg
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:37 am

Re: Are stores making the game too luck dependent?

Postby itg » Thu May 22, 2014 12:19 pm

If you're consistently having trouble finding the "right" equipment, your definition of "right" is too narrow. A big part of the game is working with what's available, not collecting lasers so you can pew pew all day, every day (or whatever your preferred strategy is).

Incidentally, in my last Rock A run (hard mode), I had trouble finding lasers, so I actually did buy an anti-bio beam and mind control. It worked pretty well and I won without much trouble, although I did finally find some good damage weapons in sector 7 (flak II and a halberd beam, I think).

By the way, Rock A is a very weak and widely disliked ship, so don't feel bad if you're struggling with it, and don't blame the general game mechanics for any negative experiences with it.
LostAlone
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:01 am

Re: Are stores making the game too luck dependent?

Postby LostAlone » Thu May 22, 2014 4:22 pm

itg wrote:If you're consistently having trouble finding the "right" equipment, your definition of "right" is too narrow. A big part of the game is working with what's available, not collecting lasers so you can pew pew all day, every day (or whatever your preferred strategy is).


That's not really fair. Lasers, beams and flak are the best weapons not because they are the most powerful, but because they are realiable - That means that you aren't at the whims of randomness as to if you can fire your weapons. It's all well and good to say that you should totally ration your missiles, but that only works if you have anything else that can kill stuff; either ships or crews. With the Rock A you have no choice. You have to use lots of missiles to get scrap and then hope that the game will help you out at some point with any other weapons. That's what makes the Rock A such a crappy ship. You are utterly at the whim of the RNG and if you aren't lucky enough to run into useful items then it's just a dead run.

More on topic -

I wouldn't say stores make the game too luck dependent as such. As such. Yes, obviously there is an element of luck to which things you can buy, and the new stuff from AE didn't help matters, watering down the pool of things you can potentially buy. That said, most ships aren't gasping for new weapons right from the start, like the Rock A is. You can generally get something at some point that is what you want. Not always. But mostly. It's not that bad.

I would definitely be in favor of a mod that gave you more control over what weapons you obtained, but I don't think it should be in the main game. The randomness is part of what makes the game what it is afterall.
English Narwhal
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:12 pm
Location: High Orbit

Re: Are stores making the game too luck dependent?

Postby English Narwhal » Thu May 22, 2014 4:44 pm

Stores aren't making the game luck dependent. They've always been that way.
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stvip
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:12 pm

Re: Are stores making the game too luck dependent?

Postby stvip » Thu May 22, 2014 7:01 pm

Rock A should be exempt from this discussion, since it has a uniquely unviable initial loadout. Everything else (even Engi B) can get extra mileage from its starting weaponry with assistance from drones or hacking (the latter being the more powerful option by far, and complements any equipment or strategy).
Levgre
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: Are stores making the game too luck dependent?

Postby Levgre » Thu May 22, 2014 7:56 pm

I wouldn't say you should blame stores, it's more how imbalanced weapons are, and how they are very often the most determining factor in a game (other than the player ofc)

That said, while your win % will almost undoubtedly be lower in games you don't find Flak/BLII/small bomb/ion bomb, etc., you can turn some of them into wins.

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