They've now made the game too hard

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Twinge
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby Twinge » Fri May 16, 2014 12:38 am

Elhazzared wrote:Indeed rogue likes are all about risk/reward. So tell me. What is the reward for fighting a rebel ship with ASB?


Well now that's an easy one: the only reason you're fighting the Rebel Elites in the first place is because you planned poorly or took the risk of visiting addition beacons knowing you had to fight them. That's one of the clearest examples of risk vs reward in the game to be honest. It's a valuation consideration - the kind of decision which makes games good.

Maybe I can visit 2 extra beacons by fighting the Rebel Elites. This is going to cost me 3 fuel and some amount of damage to my hull - with a decent setup that's probably about 5 damage. The raw scrap value to cover that loss will be about 24. How much do I expect to gain from 2 beacons? Depends on the Sector type/number, how many empty beacons I've already seen, if I already know they're a store/quest/distress, and other factors. If the expected value is enough higher than the expected loss, then it's worthwhile.

Before AE, the Rebel Elites were mostly a joke past the first 2-3 sectors - it was always worthwhile to hit extra beacons for bonus scrap. Now it's actually a choice. This ADDS to the game rather than making it worse.
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Elhazzared
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby Elhazzared » Fri May 16, 2014 1:03 am

Of course you answer ignoring all I've stated previously several times over.

The problem is not planning poorly or being greedy to be caught by the rebel fleet. Many times, probably half the sectors in average, I have to jump out after some 7 or 8 jumps instead of the normal 10 or 11 because it's the only path available to the beacon... If the seeding wasn't so bad now, this wouldn't be a problem. Similarly if the ASB wasn't a factor then early on I would take the loss but later on I'd probably hit a few extra beacons to compensate for my earlier loss... At very least I'd be able to dwell a bit into the wrong path before I had to go to the right path fighting maybe one or two rebel ships.

There is no reward for taking an average of 8 to 12 points of damage in average in a rebel fight early on. However more often if you don't, you had to leave beacons behind, beacons that under any normal circusntances you should have taken but you couldn't due to poor seeding. You lose one way or the other. There isn't much of a case of risk/reward being presented as it is right now and more importantly. The risk/reward is in the fight alone which doesn't happens since elites give you nothing but hull damage and 1 fuel if you kill them and survive the fight... Don't forget that when you go to other beacons you are already fighting for it's risk/reward in the proper beacon by beating whatever ship is there.
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shadowcrust
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby shadowcrust » Fri May 16, 2014 3:33 am

Try an exercise: argue against your own points. You may find that it is exceedingly easy to defeat all your arguments.
ForceUser
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby ForceUser » Fri May 16, 2014 9:16 am

While you are fully entitled to your opinions, stating lies as truth or opinions as facts undermines the validity of your opinions.

The amount of times I had to leave a sector 'early' or revisit more than one or two beacons because of bad seeding is exceedingly rare and even then only missing a single beacon or maybe 2. I also have found no discernible increase in the amount of beam drone/weapons when playing the stealth cruiser. So please STOP stating things you have no proof of as fact because I can SEE it is not true. I may have played only 40h so far but I have found 0 evidence of this bad seeding you say happens in HALF the sectors. Nada, zilch, null, zero, nothing.

Stop lying and maybe a proper discussion can be had.

And to lay the ASB issue to rest I have recently finished the game with a complete over the top strong setup (highly upgraded ship, excellent guns/crew/augments/drones/systems/etc. managed to lose only maybe 10 hulls points to the boss and I managed to get to that point without having to face the ASB once. I can say with 100% certainty that you can win a game overwhelmingly without having to risk facing the ASB once and I had to make that choice a few times. Then theres also so many ways to completely nullify the ASB if you have to face it as well it's not even funny. THE ASB IS IRRELEVANT.
joedoe1984
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby joedoe1984 » Fri May 16, 2014 9:35 am

Hi,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I joined the FTL believers group some 1,5 month ago. So far I've got around 90 hours played.
What I find particularly strange about your arguments is that in my opinion you keep claiming that the sector seeding is now almost constantly throwing C-shaped sectors (or other strange and difficult layouts) at us with us starting in the middle of the curve and the exit being at one of the ends. The other end being a dead end.

Although I did experience some sectors that forced me to explore less than 7 beacons, that (or any other poor sectors), happened once maybe every other game. In general I beat the boss around 30 times now, and my average beacons visited are between 80-95.

When I fought against rebel fleet it was always due to my calculated risk, or screwing over thinking they will not take over a particular beacon this jump, so I still had time.

Also, take it from a person that did not play FTL prior to AE - I consider the rebel fleet to be a real, serious threat. I avoid them almost at all costs. From what you all claim preAE rebel fleet posed no real danger at all (if you were at least semi-prepared). I think I like how it is now - a constant, looming threat.
Elhazzared
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby Elhazzared » Fri May 16, 2014 11:58 am

Forceuser - I get bad seeding in about 50% of the sectors I go in. This is not a lie, this is what happens to me. If it doesn't happens to you... Well either you are excedingly lucky or my luck is excedingly bad. I can only talk about my experience however, and my experience is about 50% bad seeding.

Similarly. About 50% of the times that I play with the stealth cruiser I get beam drones on me. this not to mention that almost all enemy ships are equiped with the shorter cooldown weapons and tend to bring the mini beam of their own, often in addition to the beam drone to add insult to injury. Out of all the times the beams are shot at me I notice at very least a 20% overall chance of getting hit in the weapon system which of course will make my one and only weapon with a 25 sec charge time disabled. Add repair time, add another charge cicle and add a somewhat high likelyhood of getting hit in the weapon system again.

And yes. I can win games too. I can get there completly overpowered. My best run was the mantis B when I got there with 2 full weapon loadouts for the boss. One entirely of missiles with high damage and short cooldown along with over 30 missiles to spend as well as 2 BL2 and a flak2. These are not normal runs however and even on subpar weaponry, so long as they are weapons that have a chance at geting through the shields and damaging the flagship, I normaly win against it. I've often said and not without a good reason. I fear an elite cruiser more (without the ASB) than I fear the flagship, this is because normaly, even on subpar weapons I can go through the first 2 stages with probably no more than 2 or 3 hull points of damage and the last stage probably some 10 hull points of damage since the super shields give it a bit more time to work me out.

The ABS is completly relevant however. Without it I could explore a few more beacons and get into the average of 10 to 11 per sector. My average as it is, is 9 per sector since some sectors will have an ok seeding and some won't.

Joedoe - Like I said before. My experience is about 50% of the times with some 50 hours (acording to steam) thrown into AE. So i get some 63 beacons before i get to the last stand. When I get there I usually ain't hoping around for scrap anymore since I need to get to the flagship somewhat fast... 63 visited beacons in average means a very underpowered ship as you can imagine though most of the times I can still handle it if I made it that far, usually the problem comes getting past sector 3 if you're thrown bad seeding right at the begining.

I don't even fight the rebel fleet, it's just not worth the damage I take for it though in rare circusntance I happen to have to fight it. Of course it usually turns into a lot more damage than I should take and powering engines to full to get the hell out of there ASAP, but usually not before taking a considerable loss in hull which will have to be repaired and that of course means, further loss of scrap.

The rebel fleet was a threat before. You'd only face it, if it was really worth the damage you'd take and you'd need a very good run not to take damage from it. The math is pretty simple. Whatever ship you face from the rebel fleet is going to have more crew, more weapons, more shields and more dodge than the ships in the sector you're in. It will always result in more damage than desired and with no reward at all for the fight... Well, ok 1 fuel... With ASB it just turns those fights when they are forced into you, and sometimes they just are, into a huge amount of damage.
"The heavens burned
The stars cried out
And under the ashes of infinity
Hope, scarred and bleeding breathed it's last."

For my Let's play series of FTL please follow the Link
ForceUser
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby ForceUser » Fri May 16, 2014 12:22 pm

Everyone says the average beacons visited is 80-90+ if you get to the last stand.

Obviously the problem here is the game and it's unfair ASB :lol:

Have you tried turning it off and on again? :geek:

Maybe you should try reinstalling the game? (This is actually a serious suggestion)
Elhazzared
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Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:45 am

Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby Elhazzared » Fri May 16, 2014 1:37 pm

Somehow, I doubt reinstaling the game will make those problems go away. If there was a problem with the game instalation there would be errors, not just getting a nearly constant RNG screw.
"The heavens burned
The stars cried out
And under the ashes of infinity
Hope, scarred and bleeding breathed it's last."

For my Let's play series of FTL please follow the Link
joedoe1984
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Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:14 am

Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby joedoe1984 » Fri May 16, 2014 1:38 pm

ForceUser wrote:Everyone says the average beacons visited is 80-90+ if you get to the last stand.

Obviously the problem here is the game and it's unfair ASB :lol:

Have you tried turning it off and on again? :geek:

Maybe you should try reinstalling the game? (This is actually a serious suggestion)


There's no need to act like a jerk.

But I find Elhazzared claim to have average of less than 70 beacons visited to be strange. I honestly can't recall if I even once went below 75 in a won game...

I know that you said that you beat the boss multiple times and spend some time in game - so you are not a noob - but maybe you should consider that something may be wrong with the path-finding decisions that you make. If so it would mean that you visit less beacons than most of us - which means that you have to take more risks with the fleet than average ergo - you face the ASB more often and hate it more than us...
ForceUser
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby ForceUser » Fri May 16, 2014 2:46 pm

Elhazzared wrote:Somehow, I doubt reinstaling the game will make those problems go away. If there was a problem with the game instalation there would be errors, not just getting a nearly constant RNG screw.

You'd think that but having been a gamer since I was 4ish and working in the IT industry since before I got out of school has taught me two things:

1) Turning it of and on again is ALWAYS a half serious suggestion.

2) Everything it worth trying at least once, even if it is just for the sake of troubleshooting/eliminating.

I have seen corrupt files cause weird things in games more times than I can remember and usually there isn't any errors. This is 25y of experience. Take it or leave it. :ugeek:

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