They've now made the game too hard

General discussion about the game.
Dirka
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby Dirka » Wed May 14, 2014 12:22 pm

Elhazzared wrote:A feauture is game breaking when it is supposedly to majorly screw you over whether you go about it one way or another. You go at it safely, you miss scrap, you miss upgrades/weapon, eventually you lose due to a poorly upgraded ship. You risk for the scrap and you get caught by the fleet for several jumps and die to the broken ASB.


I think you are exaggerating on both fronts. Sure, the new layouting can screw you from time to time, but most times, proper planning should give you plenty of time to explore. And, at least on normal, the ASB is really not that scary after the first two sectors, as it can be dodged, and, with sufficient engines, avoided entirely. Barring an unlucky shot to piloting, the ASB should not get off more than one shot.

Elhazzared wrote:What does ASB archieves after all? Does it makes the rebel fleet challenging?

Challenging = harder to beat. So yes.

Elhazzared wrote:You're not supposed to be fighting them anyway.

Exactly. As others stated, this is an entire fleet containing cruisers and battleships that are at least as powerful as the player ship. Going by that it should be even more deadly.

Elhazzared wrote:So once again what does the ASB archieves? Making the game less fun for many people.[emphasis added]

Are you sure about that? If this thread is any indication, you're generalizing a bit there.

Elhazzared wrote:And yes it impacted everyone of us or do I take it that you play exactly as before and think of being caught by the rebel fleet exactly in the same way as before?

You supplied your own answer. Of course the game is different, so play it differently. FTL is all about adapting, so adapt. Or leave AE content off ;)

In all seriousness, I'm sorry this feature is such a downer for you. But I think I can say this for everyone: we've all had our rage-quits and table-flips at supposedly unfair and unsolvable situations. And most of the times we've managed to learn from them and become better. Not saying the ASB hasn't made the game more difficult, just that it may not be that much of a gamebreaker after all. I'm sure you'll get a handle on it.

Cheers,
Dirka.
ForceUser
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby ForceUser » Wed May 14, 2014 1:33 pm

I bought this game 3 days ago so not having been around 'back in the good old days' before AE I think I can give a unique perspective to this issue.

It sounds like some of the people in here are what is called 'bittervets'.

That is to say that a perceived change or changes has now made the game nearly unplayable in their eyes. They are unable to adapt/change their own game play and as such feel it is unfair or overpowered and needs to be put back the way it was/removed. This especially happens when an exploit or advantage that these players have been abusing to make the game easier for themselves gets removed/changed.

Now normally this is a large issue in MMOs or other online games. It is less common in single player games but you still do get them.

As to the issue itself, I have managed to figure out when I can safely risk the ASB to for example get that last quest marker just behind the exit or something similar. I have had paths screw me over a few times but generally I like the challenge of dealing with the pathing and maximizing the amount of beacons I visit. It is a fun/interesting part of the game.

I have not played with the stealth ships yet but I have heard they are notoriously hard to play in.
Elhazzared
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby Elhazzared » Wed May 14, 2014 2:14 pm

Spacecadet13 - Whenver a feature (or a few) makes the game harder than it should be then it's game breaking... Yes I know how to deal with it. Yes I am rarely caught by the fleet. Doesn't means that the way it is, is right and to me it affects the number of beacons I visit every single time because on at least half the sectors I am forced to jump out earlier than I should though half of that guilt is also shared by the bad sector seeding that we have now.

Dirka - I used to say I never dodged, and while I can't say that anymore, I've only ever dodged 2 shots from it. It's nearly impossible to dodge it's shots in my experience... Even at 4 engines, but it shouldn't be a surprise since at 4 engines the dodge chance is still low. Also no plan survives the first contact. In this case, not with the enemy but with the need for shops, distress beacons which are higher rewarding and quests which are higher rewarding.

Let's clear something here. Challenging is something that it's hard to do, but can be done perfectly. A challenging fight is a fight where it makes it hard for the player to win, but it's possible to do so with no damage or minimal damage if you're good enough... Fighting an elite rebel and ASB is not challenging, it's just going to wreck you... Yes you may survive but the cost is too high if you're aiming to kill it.

No, there are no battleships. Have you ever seen any ship bigger than a cruiser? Yes you have! It's called flagship. the only thing bigger than a cruiser and never seen before.

I am sure about that. I'm not generalising too much there. I didn't say everyone didn't liked it. I didn't said most people didn't liked it. I said many people don't like the ASB and that is a fair accessment.

There are things I like in AE. Turning off AE content will remove a lot of content I like and in turn only solve the ASB problem. All other problems will be there. Bad map seeding. Ship randomisation being messed with against certain ship types. So at the end of the day I'd be losing more by turning off AE than to let it on.

And again. It's not that I can't handle it. I know how to handle it and again. I rarely am caught by the rebel fleet, half the time I have to be at a loss for it but it's relatively easy not to get caught unless say, you run out of fuel or the fleet doubles movement cause a rebel fleet managed to flee. The problem is that all of these small things just build up game after game until it stops being fun to play at all.

Forceuser - You have no clue as to what you're talking about here. It's not that game is unplayable. It's that the game becomes less fun to play... If you go around posts I was one of the very few here to defend that boarding should deal as much rewards as destroying a ship. Why? Because boarding is overpowered. It's much easier to win by boarding and it yields higher scrap and fuel reward with higher chances for weapons and augment drops... Similarly I expressed that the flak 2 might be a bit overpowered and I still think it is but it's not game breaking and it's not as if you'll get one every time. In fact you'll more often face them than actually have them.

I never used to farm extra beacon before AE. I always jumped out before the fleet caught up except if say, there was a distress or a quest beacon... The problem lies with the ASB which just makes any fight with the rebel fleet plain unfun because if you ever get in one of those. Prepare for more damage than it should be necessary. With bad map seeding you're just very restricted as to where you can go rather than before where you actually had the freedom to explore the sectors.. It's a much more on rails experience now where you either go route A and be safe but lose a ton of crap or you go partly into route B, then backtrack to route A and get caught by the fleet and either die or take more damage than it was worth the exploration... Then there is RNG being messed with. Before you knew that it was a fair game whenever you selected any ship. You'd get a randomised enemy every time. But if now you play a stealth ship for example. Prepare to face a lot of beam drones and beam ships and ships with low cooldowns. So, not as random anymore, just the kind of ships that are completly fited to screw over your ship. Fun isn't it? Almost as fun as playing super meat boy.
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ForceUser
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby ForceUser » Wed May 14, 2014 2:59 pm

I merely offered my fresh perspective on a matter that some people here might be too close to to see all the factors. I don't have any preconceived notions or bias regarding this game specifically but I do have a lot of play experience with roguelikes hence a fresh perspective.

I have seen it many times and even been victim to it myself, this is not a thing unique to FTL. In fact it is a thing that happens in every single game where there are perceived large changes. Some of the older players set in their ways unwilling(not unable) to adapt to the new change and use words like game breaking, OP, unfair and other hyperbole.

Also from what you are saying is that this is an AE only thing correct? So basically you want all the nice stuff but you don't want the increased challenges that come with it. You have the option of playing normal only and removing this 'game breaking' 'unfair' 'op' feature but are unwilling to do so because of all the extra goodies. You pay for these extra goodies that can make the game easier by the game being inherently more challenging.

I feel that is the very definition of roguelikes. Its about the hard choices, the risks, the can't have your cake and eat it moments and fighting to make it past those moments despite the things arrayed against. That's the DRAW, the PULL. The better your skill the more likely you can get past those moments or risks will pay off.

Also challenging does not in any way whatsoever mean you can do something without taking any/taking little damage, thats just insane. What you are describing is a 'cakewalk' not 'challenging'.

Challenging means it is possible to FINISH the game but it will be really really hard and a lot of times you wont because you took a risk and the RNG punished you for that risk. play on easy/normal for less of a challenge, play AE/Hard for more of a challenge. Same thing with the ships, there are easy ships and hard ships. It's a single players game, these kinds of things are allowed to exist in single player games where you have difficulty sliders/options.

In closing I'd just like to take you very fist sentence from your last post:
Whenver a feature (or a few) makes the game harder than it should be then it's game breaking...
Emphasis mine.

'Harder than it should be'.

As defined by whom? Everyone has a line that in their opinion when a feature crosses it it goes from fair to unfair, from challenging to game breaking. Everyone's line is in a different place and sometimes you have to realize that yours is perhaps in the wrong place.

Just my 2c.
Elhazzared
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby Elhazzared » Wed May 14, 2014 5:28 pm

There is a problem as I pointed out earlier with turning off AE. it only solves the ASB problem. It removes a lot of desirable features to take care of the minor of all complaints which is still a problem none the less. The seeding will still be bad, the RNG will still have been altered for the worse... So at the end of the day, turning AE off will actually make the problem worse at this point.

As for the challenging. You have to put things into perpective. What is supposed to be a challenging fight at the end of the game? A boss fight where you'll probably manage it just barely. But what is challenging early and mid game? Given how vitaly important it is to not take any damage at all, then challenging is something that you need a lot of skill and a bit of luck in reguards to your upgrades/weapons in order to kill without damage or with minimal damage. if you fail to do correctly or have RNG screw you a little bit then you'll take more damage than desirable for something that is not the end, not a stepting stone in the progress. Just another random fight you were forced to fight... Elite ships have always been this. You needed a really good run to actually get into one and not take damage. Without a really good run it took skill to get through it with minimal damage. It was challenging. The ASB makes the fight way above challenging. It's merely a "You got caught? Too bad, so sad." Sure you can outrun the fleet but even then you'll take more damage than it should be necessary for any kind of fight other than the boss fight. Between 8 and 12 hull down just to run away on 4 engines is too much damage.

Indeed rogue likes are all about risk/reward. So tell me. What is the reward for fighting a rebel ship with ASB? Especialy tell me how much is it worth what you'll get in relation to all that damage you'll take.

Let me tell you what is harder than it should be for a rogue like... How would you feel if every single fight you had to do in this game was against elite ships with ASB pointed at you?.. probably you wouldn't find it very balanced I assume... So when is a fight where you will be forced, no matter what to take a lot of damage? When just recompense is provided in return for your efforths... If I liked games that were unnecessarely hard I'd play things like super meat boy which are games for masochists.
"The heavens burned
The stars cried out
And under the ashes of infinity
Hope, scarred and bleeding breathed it's last."

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ForceUser
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby ForceUser » Thu May 15, 2014 8:50 am

Elhazzared wrote:There is a problem as I pointed out earlier with turning off AE. it only solves the ASB problem. It removes a lot of desirable features to take care of the minor of all complaints which is still a problem none the less. The seeding will still be bad, the RNG will still have been altered for the worse... So at the end of the day, turning AE off will actually make the problem worse at this point.

See here's the thing, you have a choice but you keep making up reasons to not make that choice when your entire post shows that ASB is really the only thing you have a problem with. And even then, ASB can be avoided 100% if you can't deal with it. But like I said, you want your cake and you want to eat it. You want easy mode but you aren't willing to choose it. That is a pretty frustrating mindset to argue against but it is typical of modern gamers.

As for the challenging. You have to put things into perpective. What is supposed to be a challenging fight at the end of the game? A boss fight where you'll probably manage it just barely. But what is challenging early and mid game? Given how vitaly important it is to not take any damage at all, then challenging is something that you need a lot of skill and a bit of luck in reguards to your upgrades/weapons in order to kill without damage or with minimal damage. if you fail to do correctly or have RNG screw you a little bit then you'll take more damage than desirable for something that is not the end, not a stepting stone in the progress. Just another random fight you were forced to fight... Elite ships have always been this. You needed a really good run to actually get into one and not take damage. Without a really good run it took skill to get through it with minimal damage. It was challenging. The ASB makes the fight way above challenging. It's merely a "You got caught? Too bad, so sad." Sure you can outrun the fleet but even then you'll take more damage than it should be necessary for any kind of fight other than the boss fight. Between 8 and 12 hull down just to run away on 4 engines is too much damage.

You keep saying it's 'vitally important' to not take any/little damage but that is NOT TRUE. You will take damage and sometimes a lot. sometimes you wont take any damage at all. The less damage you take the easier the boss fight will be but you can take NO damage the entire game and still lose to the boss if you don't have the right equipment, or got unlucky on crew/guns/randoms/etc.

I had an AMAZING run with my engi A last night. I had 3 ion guns, 8 crew, 25 drones, defence drone 2, full health, all kinds of augmentations. I managed to unlock BOTH the slug and Rock cruisers on that run, I had stupidly upgraded ship etc. etc. and that was all despite ASB being OMG OP and all the other issues you mention.I still only made it to the 3rd phase before dieing though but that was because I don't know all the tricks yet to defeating the boss yet.

Indeed rogue likes are all about risk/reward. So tell me. What is the reward for fighting a rebel ship with ASB? Especialy tell me how much is it worth what you'll get in relation to all that damage you'll take.

Explain to me WHY you are in a position to have to fight the ASB in the first place? You will always have enough time to get to the exit before the rebel fleet catches up, ALWAYS. it is your CHOICE to get caught by the fleet because you wanted to explore ONE more beacon, finish that ONE quest or visit that ONE store. THAT is your reward. you CHOSE to RISk the ASB for the potential reward that one or two extra beacons would provide.

There are ways to NEGATE that risk though (engines to 5+max lv crew OR engines to 6 OR Engines to 4 with adv FTL), or to make that risk less of a risk by turning off AE OR to just not take that risk in the first place but you are unwilling to do any of that.

Risk vs Reward.


Let me tell you what is harder than it should be for a rogue like... How would you feel if every single fight you had to do in this game was against elite ships with ASB pointed at you?.. probably you wouldn't find it very balanced I assume... So when is a fight where you will be forced, no matter what to take a lot of damage? When just recompense is provided in return for your efforths... If I liked games that were unnecessarely hard I'd play things like super meat boy which are games for masochists.

Now what you are doing is painting an impossible scenario, a lie. You can go through an entire game/every single game ever without facing the ASB even ONCE and now you are talking about facing it every single fight? That is a lie trying to make your argument valid when it is not.
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby 5thHorseman » Thu May 15, 2014 11:54 am

Elhazzared wrote:How would you feel if every single fight you had to do in this game was against elite ships with ASB pointed at you?


How would you feel if every fight you had asteroids? Better take them out. Or solar flares? Zoltan shields? Enemies with cloaks who are trying to get away? Beams and 2 ions? 3 missile weapons with different timings? What about 4 super weapons, 4 shields, cloak, and hacking? Imagine if every single fight was against the final boss.

You know the big difference between the elite fight and those? You don't get any choice in fighting those. You HAVE TO. Elite fights are always because you either chose to face it or screwed up, never because the game made it happen out of your control.
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Elhazzared
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby Elhazzared » Thu May 15, 2014 2:10 pm

Again, it's not wanting easy mode. The ASB is just plain overpowered and ruins the balance of the game. Anything that is too good, either in detriment of the player or in detriment of the AI should not be there.

And yes, it is vitaly important to not take much damage and the why shouldn't be a mystery to you. I don't survive any runs I take much damage and the reason is simple. i'm spending so much in repairs that I can't upgrade my ship and if I can't upgrade my ship I will lose early on. This is rather simple.

And of course you can get awesome runs. I get them too from time to time and it's ok to get awesome runs from time to time because too much of it and the game is too easy. On the average run however you'll be struggling through it as you should. The ASB and map seeding just ruin the game there.

So why am I in a position I have to fight the ASB? Usually, I am not! I am not because I know that almost spells an auto loss early on. Plain and simple. You want to know what is the problem of not being able to face the rebel fleet early on?

Path A - Leads to the end beacon. You have 7 exporable beacons by taking this path and the fleet normaly lets you explore 10 to 11 beacons at least.

Path B - Leads to a dead end with some 15 beacons to explore or more. However since you have to backtrack to get back into Path A so you can go to the exit, you need to jump through several beacons already ocuppied by the enemy fleet.

So choice A loses you a lot of scrap because you have to jump out way to early while choice B gets you destroyed.

This has nothing to do with trying to farm a couple extra beacons before leaving. I never did that before AE when I could do it safely... Unless it was a quest or distress or if it was a store I badly needed.

You could argue this won't happen every sector and you're right, it happens in about half the sectors I run through... In fact a good run these days isn't even when you get a great loadout. It's already a good run if you're not having to jump out earlier than you should in most sectors.

And yes, I gave you an exageration as a means to get the point across and the point is. A fight with the ASB is simply not balanced at all. A good player might even go through the whole game fighting ships at the elite level... well, maybe not from the very start since the ship probably needs a couple upgrades but with minimal upgrades a good player can do that and take a bit of damage per fight but manage through. With the ASB however? Not a chance. The ASB just makes any fight it is in completly one sided and when the seeding is this bad and the only way you are going to get a fair number of beacons (again, the normal number you'd have to get as before, so 10 to 11) is by fighting the rebel fleet.

5th - Asteroids, suns and similar stuff. They affect both you AND the enemy. The big difference is there. As for the otehr combination of stuff. Aside from the super weapons which are only for the flagship. Everything else you already face and whenever these ships appear, they have some downside to having something that good anyway. This is to say, the fight is balanced (also your missile presentation was the worst cause 3 missiles with the same timing are way scarier since the def drone can't shot them all down that way).

Indeed you can chose when you fight the elite ships in most cases... There is always the very unlucky case but that's very rare. Again the problem is when the choice you are presented over and over is. Either get less beacons than what you should normally get or fight the rebel fleet.
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ForceUser
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby ForceUser » Thu May 15, 2014 2:52 pm

You do realize theres an augment specifically for this right? Adv. FTL Navigation i believe. But wait I can hear your complaints already. 'That takes up an aug spot and cost scrap and wha wha wha.'

AE specifically states it is for experienced players. it is MEANT to be a tougher challenge. The tougher the challenge the sweeter the victory. Perhaps it's just not for you. Theres no shame in admitting that.

You have to realize that there are people outside of yourself. Then you need to realize that these people LIKE these changes, they like the challenge as the normal game is too easy because they know all the tricks.

The great thing about this game is they allow us to still enable normal mode so we don't have to deal with these extra challanges; They don't FORCE us to play on AE and as far as I know AE was a free update correct?

I am sorry but your whole argument sounds to me personally in my opinion like entitlement and whining. Can't stand that kind of stuff myself.
Elhazzared
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Re: They've now made the game too hard

Postby Elhazzared » Thu May 15, 2014 10:56 pm

There are 2 problems with that augment. The first is that you actually need to find it and buy it very early on which is probably not going to happen. the second problem is that while jumping into a visited beacons is all nice and fancy. It will only let you jump back to a visited beacon so you go down a route that does not leads to the end and the rebel fleet starts getting the systems in the back... When you jump back into those beacons to go into the right path... Well, you're already in the middle of the rebel fleet.

And you know what, it provides that. Boarding now is more difficult. There are newer selection of weapons and stuff to get your screwed and there is that button called HARD. If you want harder, press it. The ASB is uncalled for... Again If the ASB was the only problem I wouldn't really complain too much. It would be bad but it would be a minor complaint since it was extremely rare for me to run into the fleet anyway.

On that note, I do like the idea of a tougher game. The only reason I want to unlock all ships and versions of them is to decide the ones I like to play so I can move exclusively into hard.

And yes, maybe there is people who like these changes, I'm not saying otherwise. What I am saying is that there are people who also don't like them and just make the game an overall much worse experience.

The fact is. They force us to play AE whether we want or not. Sure, you can disable AE content but again. The sector seeding is much worse now and it doesn't matter whether you turn AE on or off. It's a change that happened to both versions.

Similarly, the fact that you get ships specificly tuned against your ship more often by the RNG is also independent of AE mode being on or off. So if I want to say, grabe a stealth ship. Now I'm going to be thrown a ton of drone ships and beam weapons. Not to mention that they will target my weapons systems much more often now which is a pain in the ass in the Stealth B though in all honesty there would be no point to play the stealth B in normal mode, the only reason I play it in AE is to get the C unlocked.

And you are right, it was a free update but I am in two minds about the update. There are lots of stuff that I like in it. But similarly there are thing in it that just make the whole experience so aggravating that I am left in two minds on whether I even wanted it or not now that I know what's in store... Again, mostly isn't the ASB but all the rest.

This is not whining. If something is unbalanced then I have the right to complain about it. You may not agree with my opinion, but I have the right to state it and defend it none the less and I do am entitled to that much too.
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The stars cried out
And under the ashes of infinity
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