[AE][SHIP] The Fishhook (Now with gibs and cloak image)

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Woodledude
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Re: [AE][SHIP][WIP] The Can Opener/Fishhook (Now with hull)

Postby Woodledude » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:38 pm

Estel wrote:This is becoming really interesting ship - I think it's going to my (extremely small) list of custom ships that I download and treat as "canon", as soon as it gets proper gibs and cloak image.

Suggestion, thought - why custom weapons? I quite dislike the pattern that every custom ship must get a custom weapon. If you would care to release a vanilla version and CE version separately (or CE-only version, as far as it bothers me, but speaking for the right of others ;) ) you could use one of the plethora of weapons available in CE that fits your ship design (ship cutter), without running into possible balance issues (too OP when your custom weapons get paired with some types of normal weapons - really, masking weapons balanced is much harder task, than most ship creators think it is), not to mention avoiding element of immersion-breaking. It is not very "realistic" to have ship with only-one-in-galaxy weapon type, unless it really, really fits the lore. For me, this ship may act like great "one of many" lanius scavenging vessels, no much sense in it having something that no one else in galaxy can get.

/Estel


First off, thank you for your feedback. This is some good criticism, and I appreciate it being thrown my way. I'm flattered that you think my ship is "almost canon".

Now let me say this: Mini Beams are incredibly powerful weapons, even being the very weakest laser in the game. The most Mini Beams any ship in the game starts out with is one, for VERY good reason - It's a 4-damage weapon for quite a few ships, and putting two of those things on is immediately 8 damage every 12 seconds, once you get through shields. To make a ship with three beam weapons of ANY type and not have it be overpowered or completely useless, I had to make weaker beams. A design choice, not an assumption, if you will. So for balance issues, I can't use even the weakest beams in the game, and therefore had to make something custom.

Also, I'm a fledgling game designer, I need the practice in balancing weapons. And yes, I understand it's difficult, but you look at Flak weapons and tell me that getting two of those isn't completely crazy in terms of damage output. There are powerful weapons in the game, and weak weapons in the game. Things are supposed to be a little unbalanced, that's what makes the game INTERESTING, and I'm saying this, again, as someone who has studied game design. I'm confident that I'll be able to make acceptable weapons with enough feedback from how they actually play.

I'll look into a CE version, certainly, but I'm going to have to try CE out first - I usually only play vanilla, and from what I've seen of CE, it's very slightly poorer quality than what I'm used to, with typos and immersion-breaking dialogue. It's not bad, it's just not FTL. I'll get around to it eventually, I'm sure.

And as far as canon goes, think about this: The Lanius are a mysterious and solitary race. Why should everyone and their mother have a Lanius weapon - No - Have a Lanius *tool*? Because that's really what these are, they're tools used to cut ships. In terms of damage output, you'd be far better with just three Mini Beams, which are widely available. The mod already distributes the beams to shops, so I could always make an enemy version of the Fishhook and add the cutting beams to the Lanius weapon list... Although something tells me they wouldn't really use the beams for war, which would be the purpose of the military escorts we've heard about. They would consider them tools, not weapons, and they likely might not make the connection between the importance of oxygen to other races and the ability to cause hull breaches.

Thank you again, and I hope my mod becomes something you can enjoy. Please, try it and see for yourself if the weapons are really that OP or UP - I've spent several hours already tweaking them, and I'll likely spend many more doing exactly that.
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NarnKar
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Re: [AE][SHIP][WIP] The Can Opener/Fishhook (Now with hull)

Postby NarnKar » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:21 pm

Woodledoodle: In CE, there are variants of beams called Focus Beams--they're like 5px trails, so they can only damage one room. Your 10px beam sounds kind of like the Focus Beam, except it can be aimed across two rooms with a little difficulty.
Woodledude
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Re: [AE][SHIP][WIP] The Can Opener/Fishhook (Now with hull)

Postby Woodledude » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:54 pm

NarnKar wrote:Woodledoodle: In CE, there are variants of beams called Focus Beams--they're like 5px trails, so they can only damage one room. Your 10px beam sounds kind of like the Focus Beam, except it can be aimed across two rooms with a little difficulty.


Interesting... I assume that's taking advantage of the 2 pixel border around each room. I might more seriously consider looking into a CE version of this ship. My only aim with making it as short as 10 pixels was to make it impossible to get 4 rooms at once - I can usually manage 3 with 10 pixels - But I might look into making them a "Focus Beam".I might make them stronger, that being the case. Knowing about that certainly opens up new doors for balancing. It still kills me that no one has actually played the game with the Fishhook and talked to me about their experience, but oh well. It'll happen eventually. In the meantime, I suppose next on my list is the cloak image, gibs, and looking into Captain's Edition more.
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Estel
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Re: [AE][SHIP][WIP] The Can Opener/Fishhook (Now with hull)

Postby Estel » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:00 am

Woodledude wrote: It still kills me that no one has actually played the game with the Fishhook and talked to me about their experience, but oh well. It'll happen eventually. In the meantime, I suppose next on my list is the cloak image, gibs, and looking into Captain's Edition more.


Oh, you got me wrong, I actually played it before commenting (would be quite silly to do otherwise, don't you think?;) ). That's why I've mentioned releasing two version if you care - CE and vanilla. Vanilla would have to keep custom weapons, while CE one could use one of amazing n(and really good balanced) CE beams/other tools that seems to fit Laniuses - like, plasma weapons for melting ships, etc. I'm absolutely aware why you haven't opted for mini beam - it is, actually, most versalite (if not most desirable, for 4-weapon slot ships) beam weapon. Also, it is a reason, why it doesn't spawn in shops/as rewards.

Now, I'm absolutely surprised - not to say "shocked" = that you consider CE "Something of less quality that you're used to" and "not FTL". For me, as a die-hard FTL fan, FTL doesn't exist without CE. It is like unofficial, community-driven expansion, that came before AE, added MUCH more well thought, balanced, and very fun to play things, then, continued to do so after AE. It is lore-friendly, total FTL elevated to next level. Additionally - if not most importantly - it have super-friendly, wise and collaborative maintainer, who constantly - without single break for all those years with CE - listens to input, actively discuss it, incorporate good suggestions and fix every fixable bug reported by players (VERY quickly). It's a mod maintainership role figure case :)

The only "immersion breaking" - as you call them - texts in CE happen around trading system (literally one text reminding you to sell trade goods at shop - just because this thing is UNMODDABLE by any means), and in description of artillery system, which - due to developer-only fixable bug in FTL - makes game crash upon loading save, if bought. For me, those are really good reasons ;)

Now, the lore texts, event lines, plot of longer multi-stage quests, and even random alien chatter is absolutely top-notch. That is said from hardcore RPG and cRPG fan - by the latter I mean things like Planescape: Torment, Fallout, Witcher, etc. So I think I have pretty high standards re plot quality.

As for typos - well, there is only so much that ONE person doing mod can do, without community testing. As far as I know, every typo reported is bashed out. Funny enough, Sleepy was even asked to fix VANILLA FTL typos, that people thought were CE-introduced. Anyway, I completely (and respectfully) disagree with "typos everywhere".

Summing it up, I strongly encourage you to try CE (although, be prepared - just like in CE banner, universe is much richer, but harsher as well. I know only a handful of people who dare to play it on Hard for every run). Unless we have completely different sense of what quality means, I think you're going to stay with it ;)

/Estel
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NarnKar
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Re: [AE][SHIP][WIP] The Can Opener/Fishhook (Now with hull)

Postby NarnKar » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:03 am

I took the Fishhook (Can opener? Canhook? Fish opener?) for a spin...

Didn't really get a flagship-killing layout, but here's what I can tell you from a brief bit of playtime. FTL: AE, easy mode.

-I didn't use the breaching beam at all--maybe that's a playstyle difference, but I preferred the dual 10px beams. Hack the shields, beam three rooms each--five or six damage every time I fire. To make things even better, I got an Ion Mark I, reducing hacking reliance.
-...that's all I can tell you, actually. I'm...not good at FTL. :oops: :oops: :oops:
Woodledude
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Re: [AE][SHIP][WIP] The Can Opener/Fishhook (Now with hull)

Postby Woodledude » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:44 am

Estel wrote:
Woodledude wrote: It still kills me that no one has actually played etc...


Oh, you got me wrong, etc...

/Estel


Interesting... Yeah, I only saw CE from a Youtube video, which if I remember correctly was very old... I'll have to actually check it out, based on what you're saying. I'll certainly endeavour to make a CE version of the ship.

What did you think of the ship, anyway? You've told me that you want a CE version, but what about the playstyle, the balance? Have I done a good job?

NarnKar wrote:I took the Fishhook (Can opener? Canhook? Fish opener?) for a spin...

Didn't really get a flagship-killing layout, but here's what I can tell you from a brief bit of playtime. FTL: AE, easy mode.

-I didn't use the breaching beam at all--maybe that's a playstyle difference, but I preferred the dual 10px beams. Hack the shields, beam three rooms each--five or six damage every time I fire. To make things even better, I got an Ion Mark I, reducing hacking reliance.
-...that's all I can tell you, actually. I'm...not good at FTL. :oops: :oops: :oops:


XD You know, the Emergency battery lets you use all three of the weapons for 30 seconds at the start, and I find the Cutter Beam helps to reduce the ability of crew to repair the ship, and also makes them panic. Just one shot of that should keep them on their toes while you cut them apart. It's not an easy ship to use, for certain, and I may buff it a bit, but it's nice to hear about your run. :)
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Estel
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Re: [AE][SHIP][WIP] The Can Opener/Fishhook (Now with hull)

Postby Estel » Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:07 am

Woodledude wrote:What did you think of the ship, anyway? You've told me that you want a CE version, but what about the playstyle, the balance? Have I done a good job?


Considerably good, but as expected, I found the wanna-be focus beams overpowered, due to ability to hit multiple rooms. The breaching one can be totally OP against living things later in game, when you get other support weapons, too.

Now, about CE version - just to make things clear, it works with CE (obviously). The whole thing about CE version is that you could use it's weapons (well, would be good to know them beforehand ;) ) and augments. Really helps to characterize playstyle you want to get with that ship.

/Estel
Woodledude
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Re: [AE][SHIP][WIP] The Can Opener/Fishhook (Now with hull)

Postby Woodledude » Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:10 am

Estel wrote:Considerably good, but as expected, etc...

/Estel


Hmm... I'll tweak them, certainly. No experience with artillery, but I may actually make the cutter beam that at a later point... Once I get the weapons reworked, I'll be able to put out a rename (to "The Fishhook"), which will include the new cloak image and gibs.

EDIT: I think I'm getting somewhere here. I'll do some more testing tomorrow, but so far it seems like giving the Incision beams no damage, a longer cooldown, crew damage, and fire chance, while also letting the Cutter Beam do one damage a room, but increasing its cooldown to 25 seems to be a winning combination. Further refinement is needed, I'll be updating the ship tomorrow with any luck.
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Estel
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Re: [AE][SHIP][WIP] The Can Opener/Fishhook (Now with hull)

Postby Estel » Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:06 pm

Woodledude wrote:
Estel wrote:Considerably good, but as expected, etc...

/Estel


Hmm... I'll tweak them, certainly. No experience with artillery, but I may actually make the cutter beam that at a later point...


Oh - giving this shipa a special gimminck, thanks to (tweaked) artillery is actually great idea. It could be characterized as special, Lanius "industrial" beam, used for scavening (thus very long cooldown, initially, but as with all artilleries, could get upgraded, making it better-suited for military purposes). No idea what properties you want to include, but causing massive breaches and fire - with no hull damage, yet piercing all shields (including zoltan ones) could work. Just random idea that is doable from modding perspective, not tested in practice re balancing.

Side effect would be reducing the ammount of "normal" weapons the ship have - it's a little strange to get almost everything you need at start. You know, when you gain other weapons - now - it either forces you to completely change your loadout, or keep what you had on start, with only minor addition. Having less "special" starting weapon would increase importance of buying/getting good weapons on the way, while art. beam would still keep ship's characteristic.

/Estel
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NarnKar
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Re: [AE][SHIP][WIP] The Can Opener/Fishhook (Now with hull)

Postby NarnKar » Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:26 pm

Estel wrote:No idea what properties you want to include, but causing massive breaches and fire - with no hull damage, yet piercing all shields (including zoltan ones) could work.


I don't think Zoltan Shields are pierce-able? I think it's a code limitation, but I wouldn't know for sure.

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