FTL Captain's Edition 1.308/Inf 1.301b/EL 1.308

Distribute and discuss mods that are functional. Moderator - Grognak
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Sleeper Service
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.28d/Inf 1.28/EL 1.28

Postby Sleeper Service » Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:34 pm

"Done" as in "not developing major new components for the mod". I'm still fixing problems whenever they are reported and now and then I consider small additions to the mod if making them isn't too time consuming.
ledtim
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.28d/Inf 1.28/EL 1.28

Postby ledtim » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:38 pm

Hi, I've been playing FTL for a while, and recently came across your mod.

I have an odd hobby, in that when I get into a game, I spend about as much time thinking and analyzing games as actually playing them.

I've made a spreadsheet for myself analyzing DPS and DPS/Power for drones, artillery, and weapons in the game, and been doing some other random analysis and thought of some suggestions.
----
I think it's perfectly fine for some weapons and equipments to be better than some others in the vast majority of situations, but I think even "bad" weapons need to have something going for them that makes you choose it some times. Here's some I noticed that have nothing or very little going for them compared to their competitors.

1. Adaptive Effector
Fully charged, it is 3 power, 18 cooldown, 3 ion damage.
Compare the heavy effector (which has same cost in shops and lower rarity). 2 power, 26 cooldown, 4 ion damage.
The ion DPS is very similar, and that's AFTER adaptive effector fully charged, and heavy effector uses the 1 less power. Fully charged up, up 3x from it's initial values, adaptive effector still has the lowest DPS/power out of all the effector weapons.

I had to double check the numbers, because it's the only weapon that's blatantly horrible in the mod compared to others in the family. Even chain ion which isn't too great, has superior DPS and DPS/power compared to most other ion weapons when fully charged up.

2. Hadur Mine
Compare to Frigg and hull missile (the one that does 4 damage to systemless rooms). Hadur is inferior to a hull missile that hits systemless rooms in every way in combat. Hadur is a lot cheaper in shops, I'll concede, and it has some empty beacon utility (which I don't think really makes up for the inferiority). But also, compare to the Frigg, which costs 1 power, and has 12 sec CD compared to hadur's 20, which means that Hadur actually has less DPS than Frigg, while using more power. Of course, Hadur is bit more efficient in missile use, but it's only the difference between 4 damage/missile to 3 damage/missile.

3.
Defense turret mark I seems to be just worse than Mark II?
It's an old outdated model, so it makes sense it'd be inferior, but shouldn't it at least cost less in shops? Clearance sale, 50% off?

4. Swarm missile drone
-10% fire chance, -10% breach chance, -1 system damage, , -1sec stun, -15 crew damage for -10 store scrap cost (-12%) compared to the heavy-antiship missile drone, to which it is identical in all other aspects.
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Kestrel C.
I don't get this ship really. It was one of the lackluster ships in vanilla, but it became quite possibly the worst ship in the game in CE, and it doesn't exactly have a fun gimmick either.

Its weapons seem to just not work together very well. Baton beam is a very odd choice on a ship that doesn't start with other crew killing weapons or a teleporter. It takes forever to kill any ship and it gets boring, even in sector 1. Some ideas to change the ship, not all of them are meant to be used together:

Add the augment that disables enemy life support. Already takes forever to kill a ship, might as well as try to wait them out while stunning the crew and disabling the ship. Kinda themey with the lanius on board, who's otherwise just there.

Give baton and bo beams some sort of buffs? Longer stun? Breach chance? I find that I rarely end up using those weapons if I have any other choice. I didn't list these up there, because they do fill a unique role, but in my experience, there are almost always better choices, whether for crew killing or system damaging. For example, compare baton beam to hasta beam. Only thing baton beam has over hasta is 1sec less cooldown and 5 sec stun on crew hit. Hasta beam has 35 length compared to baton's 25 length, chance for fire, 1 hull damage per room hit, the same crew and system damage. One radical change would be to give baton and bo some shield piercing, and replace the flak with a light laser (and maybe add a basic laser), turning the Swallow into the second non-boarding crew killing ship other than the slug A.

Replace flak with a weapon like a dual laser that can hit specific rooms reliably, so at least the enemy crew can be whittled down faster and more reliably.

Add a 2nd baton beam so crew can be killed a bit faster, or ships can be more disabled throughly.
---
Bloated shops and crew killing weapons

I find that in CE, it's much harder to find useful stuff in shops compared to the vanilla game. I think one of the prime culprits is anti-crew weapons. CE added more than 10 weapons (maybe 20 if drones are included, I haven't done an exact count) that mostly do nothing but damage crew, compared to vanilla's single very rare anti-bio beam. Thing is, only a fraction of typical runs need or want crew damaging weapons, and they don't need too many of them. And fire weapons tend to serve the same purpose of damaging the crew without damaging the ship too much and have the same weaknesses against auto-ships [I suppose the one time anti-crew weapons and fire weapons have different strength/weakness pattern is against Lanius and hologram crew ships, when fire is ineffective while anti-crew remains effective, especially so against holograms. But you only run into those ships quite rarely].

And the light laser series are all quite similar to each other (is there really a need for light Scatter II that has 1 second higher cooldown while doing 15 more crew damage than light scatter I? Or for that matter, is there really a need for the light scatter series? Compared to the light laser series, per salvo, they effectively do little more breaching and have a little less cooldown in exchange for 1 less shield piercing.), and anti-crew drones tend to be not great since they hit random rooms. I find most of the crew damaging weapons and drones I come across to be dead spaces in shops for these reasons. I think the problem of cluttered shops would improve a lot, if some of the similar weapons in the light laser series were pruned. Another less drastic change would be to raise the rarities of crew damaging weapons and drones considerably (I wouldn't mind if all the light laser and light scatter laser series to have 5 rarity. So many of them and they are very similar) so they appear in shops less.

===
Oh, and a minor suggestion to close it out. The laser charger that can charge up to 3 times has the identical long and short name as the one that can charge 2 times. Maybe they can be given the "Mark #" treatment.
meklozz
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.28d/Inf 1.28/EL 1.28

Postby meklozz » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:11 pm

Adaptive effector will stack with itself when fully manned.

I generally look at most of the CE stuff as a sort of theme-building. Not everything needs a purpose other than making the world feel more diverse. I think I agree with the light laser thing, though, as there are an awful lot of them.

I think it was also said somewhere that CE ships aren't really built for balance as much as to showcase the new stuff. I guess that mean that playing with the vanilla patch is still somewhat recommended.
Last edited by meklozz on Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ledtim
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.28d/Inf 1.28/EL 1.28

Postby ledtim » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:28 pm

Adaptive effector will stack by itself fully charged, but only with a fully trained guy manning the weapons, and if it doesn't miss. That's really bad for a 3 power requirement weapon.

That's really horrible for a chain weapon that's fully warmed up. It has the second worst DPS/power among all ion weapons in CE AFTER it's fully warmed up. Only thing worse in DPS/power is chain ion that's not warmed up.

It's so horrible that I keep feeling like I'm missing soemthing in the game's .xml and I'm going to check the thread later and look stupid.
meklozz
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.28d/Inf 1.28/EL 1.28

Postby meklozz » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:33 pm

Hey, I didn't say it was great, but the ability to stack does matter, especially for an ion that bypasses shields (I'm thinking of the right weapon, right?).
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Sleeper Service
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.28d/Inf 1.28/EL 1.28

Postby Sleeper Service » Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:30 pm

Thanks for the constructive comments, I'll take this into account for the next update. Stuff under consideration now:

Adaptive Effector
So CE's ion families have some of everything right now. Burs Ions are decent, effectors and phase Ions have special uses and ion flaks are garbage. Since the effector family misses a decent high tier member I'd consider lowering adaptive effectors charge time to 14. I wouldn't touch its charge time since two effectors already reside at two power.

Hadur Mine
I'm more or less comfortable with this one being complete garbage, mostly because I don't like giving enemies different stats for their guns. The thing is that hardur is a considerable thread in enemy hands, giving it faster charge or lower power usage will only reinforce that, the later will even cause it to appear more often in enemy hands. One thing that could be considered is having the player variant use only one power, but again, I'm not a big fan of having player and enemy operated on too different rule sets.

Defense Turret Mark I
Agreed, that will be cheaper.

Swarm Missile Drone
Agreed, should be slightly faster.

Kestrel C
I consider doubling the Baton and Bo Beams system damage and removing their crew damage altogether while also giving them longer stuns. Overall I'm ok with Ketrel c being garbage though. The baton buff would make the ship a little better at suppressing enemies. As mentioned, the load-outs are to some extend designed as a showcase, so suggestions in changes should include CE weapons exclusively. I also tried to remain close to the original loadouts whenever possible. I agree that the playing the ship can seem really stale, but I found myself having some fun with it regardless, as every fight kind of needs your full attention. But yeah, combat should probably go faster for that ship.

Crew Killing Weapons
So I don't try to force play-styles on anyone here, but CE does kind of introduce this whole "remote crew killing" and "covering fire for boarders" as a new play style. It is up to you whether you want to roll with that, however I wouldn't agree that typical runs don't want or need these builds. Crew kill builds are a straight upgrade from normal ship destroyers and since boarding became quite a bit harder in the mod they kind of fill or support that niche. But I agree that the light scatter series is very similar to the light burst family. I guess the light scatter series could be mothballed, but that basically depraves players of ways to gain more scrap. *shrug* I think a big part of this matter is whether player can accept crew killing builds to be a bigger part of the game than before. Personally I find them quite interesting to play.
ledtim
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.28d/Inf 1.28/EL 1.28

Postby ledtim » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:33 pm

Hadur Mine:
I don't understand, is Hadur a particularly common weapon in enemy ship loadouts? Genuinely asking, I'm not familiar with how ships are generated in the game.

I mean, I would rather face an enemy with a hadur mine then a hull missile or a titan missile (both 2 power missile weapons strictly superior to hadur mine), but I don't want hull missile or titan missile to be nerfed to be as bad as hadur mine, so I don't understand why hadur mine has to stay bad as it is because the enemy uses it.

Crew killing weapons:
Yeah, perhaps I haven't given that play method enough of a chance, other than few runs with Slug A.

I guess it wouldn't be bad for light laser to be fairly common for players who want to have easy access to the play style, but it's very annoying to visit a shop and see two or more slots taken by anti-crew weapons you don't currently need.

In my opinion, light auto laser, light laser I-II, and light scatter I-II all blend together, more or less the same thing with slight stat differences, with same power requirement and near identical DPS. Same with light artillery, light laser III, and light scatter III.

If you asked me, I would make each light laser item more common, but reduce the number of redundant types.

Something like:
1 power:
1 rarity common light laser that's same as current light laser II. This would be the common everyday basic multishot light laser.

2 power: Have these items at 1-2 rarity each.
Keep the Light artillery laser.
Create a new light scatter laser that's 2 powers that's similar to current light scatter laser III, except it pierces only 1 shield instead of 2 and has a lower cooldown. This is to differentiate between the remaining 2 power light laser weapons, artillery laser with high shield pierce, the light scatter laser with higher DPS but lower shield pierce.
[edit: oops, I originally wrote light laser III while writing the post, but changed it to light scatter laser III before posting, and forgot to change the rest of the text properly. Light scatter laser III already pierces only 1 shield. I do think it needs a bit lower cooldown then it currently has, because it's just worse than light artillery in most situations though they have same rarity and cost]

3 power:
Keep the light chain vulcan.

So this would get rid of the most redundant light lasers, and rarities would be lowered so they would be still fairly accessible, but there would be less situations when shops have multiple of slightly different but functionally same light lasers, and each light laser type has a unique identity.
Last edited by ledtim on Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.28d/Inf 1.28/EL 1.28

Postby stylesrj » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:31 pm

Hey if we're going to be ripping on certain ships here, what's the story with the Stealth B?
The Naginata Beam is basically a longer Halberd but much worse in charge time and actual damage since it hasn't got a shield busting weapon like the Zoltan A has.
This means after holding out for 25 seconds and hoping Weapons doesn't get hit, you have to hit the enemy ship again to finish it off! (And don't say that you hit shields first then sweep the rest. Sometimes the enemy has 3HP shields in Sector 1)

And the 4-missile rack... works only when used against you. Takes forever to charge up and by the time you've used it to disable the enemy's shields and swapped back to the Naginata, the enemy's fixed them up and you've wasted a missile.

If I had to fly the Stealth B, I'd have to do it with the Vanilla loadout because the Glaive Beam is enough risk/reward. The CE loadout means greater chances for the RNG to screw you over.

Also, why are Mine Drones still here? :lol:
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stylesrj
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.28d/Inf 1.28/EL 1.28

Postby stylesrj » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:39 am

Because I want to rip on the Stealth B some more, here's video evidence of why the ship is both good and bad.

https://youtu.be/emy2GOTKFVg

I guess I can see the appeal but the fact it requires so many shots fired to get a kill makes it rather frustrating early on until you get Shields or Hacking. And it means by Sector 2 you better have a decent shield-piercing gun (I actually had to use missiles!)
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.28d/Inf 1.28/EL 1.28

Postby Captain Trek » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:35 am

I find the CE Kestral C is actually pretty strong. If it weren't for the fact that dying of old age is a very real possibility while you're flying it, it'd be a straight up 7/10 ship for me (as it is I rate it at 6/10). I wouldn't recommend upping the system damage, because in my experience from A Strange New Galaxy, 2 system damage, 0 hull damage beams are the single most overpowered thing in the world. As it is, the fact that it takes 5-evar might very well be the only thing balancing it, because with enough patience the Baton Beam can de-crew every sector 1 and 2 enemy ship for better rewards. Its only real weaknesses are suns and enemies you don't manage to de-weapon quickly, as the long-running battles typical of the CE Kestral C can really cause incoming damage to mount up.

I wholeheartedly agree that the CE Stealth B is a pile of pigeon poo, however...

You know, I should probably post my ratings for the entire roster of CE ships. I've had them for months and never presented them because I never actually wound up posting here after signing up...

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