FTL Captain's Edition 1.308/Inf 1.301b/EL 1.308

Distribute and discuss mods that are functional. Moderator - Grognak
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Sleeper Service
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.277b/Inf 1.267/EL 1.275

Postby Sleeper Service » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:19 pm

Code: Select all

The code tag can display a lot of text in compressed form, might be helpful there. Looking forward to it.
Tycho X
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.277b/Inf 1.267/EL 1.275

Postby Tycho X » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:19 pm

Sleeper Service wrote:

Code: Select all

Okay,thanks! But I'm afraid they'll most likely be sent without the code actually pre-written, since I don't really know how that works (meaning lots and lots of bugs and errors).
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Sleeper Service
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.277b/Inf 1.267/EL 1.275

Postby Sleeper Service » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:20 am

Well thats ok I guess. If your events roughly match the criteria and have some appeal I might still integrate them. However, you'll have to understand that refining the event into xml is part of the job and requires a lot of time and testing and ultimately creates greater risk on my side (as opposed to ready-to-use, pre-tested xml format events; something that pretty much no one actually submitted ever :roll: ).

But in any case, I think it's great that you literally created a hundred events and that you are that committed to the game and the mod. I'd really like to have a look at what you came up with. :)

Just remember that ultimately ideas are cheap. ;) I don't mean this to be dismissive of your effort, I think it's great that you came up with a hundred ideas. But I hope you see the cost of the decisions (ideas) you make. Or as Jesse Shell would put it: Expecting me to care more about your ideas than you do yourself isn't the best pitch.
Tycho X
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.277b/Inf 1.267/EL 1.275

Postby Tycho X » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:12 am

Sleeper Service wrote:Stuff, $€£¥.


I'm completely with you here. 'I feel you' :D
This is why I wish to actually learn flt scripting and do it myself, so that A) I'm actually really helping FTL/CE and I'm more part of the team effort and B) to give these little/big ideas a better chance of being integrated. Not to mention so that they really work the way I intended, and don't get any accidental typos added during creation.

Anyway. What I'm getting at here is I'll first try to do it myself via error and trial, and if I so happen to learn what i need, I'll do it for you ;) Doing this will take at least a couple weeks though, (plus I'm not at home for the next 2-3 weeks).

Nice speaking to you by the way!
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mothballs
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.277b/Inf 1.267/EL 1.275

Postby mothballs » Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:49 pm

I've flirted with CE several times over the past year. The first couple times, it kept repelling me for reasons I found hard to articulate. This last time, I stuck with it through many frustrating playthroughs and I've documented as best as possible what it is about this mod I find very hard to digest. Kudos, as always, is afforded to SS and all contributors for their hard work on a very thorough, impressive mod. But there many design choices I disagree with:

-Most importantly, with the array of new weapons and ships out there, the player dies (often), but usually not knowing exactly why. In the base game, you might suffer an unavoidable loss due to bad luck, but even in those scenarios it's still quite clear why you died - you got boarded by 4x Mantis as Engi B, or you got overrun by the fleet since you ran out of fuel - it's due to a known weakness of your ship, or due to poor choices on your part. In CE, things just sort of happen to wreck you and it's not entirely clear why, or what weakness of yours is being exploited, or how you could have shored up that weakness and avoided that death. Weapons like effectors, heavy ions, and mine/missile drones disrespect the fundamental Rock Paper Scissors relationship that defines encounters in this game. You're rock, so you know you beat scissors and need to watch our for paper. Then CE whacks you upside the head with a clothes iron and you're left wondering how you were even supposed to respond as your ship breaks apart.

-This is compounded by some poor audio/visual choices regarding the weapons. Seems many or most of the new weapons have extremely loud reports and/or very fast projectile speeds. This leads to situations for the new (or experienced!) player where all they hear is a loud BANG and a flash of light, and suddenly their pilot is dead and their shields are totally down. It perpetuates the feeling that the game is just sort of mindlessly aggressing on the player, rather than presenting clear challenges with knowable solutions.

-The player should be in absolute control of himself, his ship, and his crew at all times, except in the event that a clearly defined 3rd party has compromised that control. Events like enemy mind control or system malfunction due to enemy hacking events are fine, since you know who the culprit behind it is. CE adds a bunch of mid-fight events where your ship just powers down or catches on fire for No Damned Reason, which is deeply insulting to the player's sense of agency. Now along with facing enemies from without, there are enemies from within too. The crew and ship can't even be trusted to do their job. Imagine if you told your weapons guy to go fix the O2 room and instead he just walked over the airlock (no mind control), opened the door and suffocated himself. If that's unacceptable (and it is!), then having your crew and ship fail inexplicably to do their job through event dialogue is unacceptable too. This extends to the piracy / diplomacy gameplay as well. The player shouldn't even be given the option to go through with an act that'll cause crew to revolt. If he has a piracy-enabling item, show the blue dialogue. If he doesn't, don't show it. Leaving the piracy option is a false choice (you'd be dumb to ever take it without a blue option) and just further instills in the player the sense that his crew are not his to control, undermining his sense of agency.

-Extend this further to certain combat augs, especially Targeting Jammer. The jammer itself seems to jam more often than it works. For an augment that's eating up a slot and forcing me to reserve two power for it (even if it fails to 'hit'), it is unreliable to the point of uselessness. If the Jammer failing was uncommon as getting engine-hacked is, it might be fine. But as-is, it is the first thing I sell off of Slug A and just build myself Shields 2 with the proceeds. I don't know if the other combat augs (internal effector, are there others?) have this same success rate or not.

-Negative outcomes in blue choices and shop nodes. CE is ten times more fickle and openly hostile to the player than the base game already. All that danger and uncertainty needs a foil - something, somewhere, sometimes in the game that is unambiguously good for the player. In the base game that's always been blue choices and shop nodes. In CE I sent mining drones ahead to mine an asteroid for me (blue choice that sets a quest marker). When I went out of my way to get there, I'm greeted by zero rewards, automatic hull damage, system fires and an interminable wait game as my crew fix the engines and my FTL charges. Or, another time when I visited a shop and was immediately greeted by a gang of four Rock thugs that pulped my slug crew into slug juice. That's not a challenge. That's just spite.

-Trading is enough bother already, clogging up an aug slot with no guarantee of payoff if you can't find a shop that'll buy. Getting a rebel fleet advance on buying AND selling trade goods unless you have ANOTHER near-useless aug that enables instant trading, just makes the whole process unappealing in the extreme.

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There is a lot of pointless fiddling-around in written events and game descriptions that conveys a sense of meddling ineptitude, frankly. For instance, I encountered a slaver event where "drawing straws" was changed to "drawing cards." Nothing else about the event seemed to have changed. But someone had to put their finger in that pie and swirl it around, just because they could. Another example: "Stealth Weapons" augment changed to "Advanced Cloaking Field." So, an augment that tells you what it does right there in its name has been changed to something you have to read the description for to find out what it does. It all lends an unprofessional, kitchen sink feel to the mod, that everything's been altered not because it needed to be altered, but just because it could be.

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I think even beyond the emergent RPS issues with all the new ships and weaponry, the starting zone has gotten buffed across the board? All I know is in vanilla or smPK, I can at least survive zone 1 in Normal mode nine times out of ten (unless I'm playing one of THOSE ships, like Stealth B). In CE, I'm luckily if I don't die in zone 1 nine times out of ten. And that's a reversal of fortune I don't think I can entirely blame simply on getting blown out of orbit by new enemy weaponry.

Well, summing all the above up, my feelings about the mod are that it is deeply, gleefully spiteful, and truly delights in killing off the player in a way I don't even think anyone contributing to the mod really designed for. I hope I'm not wrong on that account. It's an emergent feature of jamming so much shiny new functionality into one mod - "how about this? why not these? how about those? oh, and this too, that'll be great! put all that in!" - that affords the game a zillion new ways to shred the player into tiny pieces, without giving the player much more in the way of defensive options to counter them. I suspect this becomes less so the case in the later game, when the usual zero-damage strategies of weapon pre-ignition or stealth+hacking are as viable as ever. But I've played the mod five or six hours now (normal) and not yet gotten past zone 3. It would have been fun if my losses were comprehensible to me, but as described above, for the most part they weren't. It was just a fickle universe slapping me around for the hell of it.

The mod in its current state is not one where "your mistakes will be punished. Severely." Rather it seems to be one where the player gets punished (severely), just for playing the game at all.

That's my probably very unpopular 2 scrap... if it seems like a lot, it's cuz I had a lot on my mind. Really wanted to enjoy this mod, and really wanted to explain (to myself as much as others) why I seem not to be able to.
Artamba
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.277b/Inf 1.267/EL 1.275

Postby Artamba » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:23 am

mothballs wrote:snappitysnip


I read your 2 scrap with a very open mind and I find that your points are something I want to ponder on. I haven't played enough to be sure if you are correct about the lack of all-round control the player has over their fate, but I understand what you are talking about with the pie-swirling business just because they could - although, for some alterations I must say they do serve a little more of a purpose than just 'changing it 'cause you could'. Stealth Weapons to Advanced Cloaking Field is just a little more lore-delicious; it makes sense and immerses me into the pond of ftl just a little bit more. I know your problem stretches out further than that example.

Some weapons I feel make little sense or are simply there for the sake of variety and 'choice', like the Hull Smasher Laser 1 has the same charging time and power-cost as the Heavy Laser 1, but other than a little more breach chance (I think) it is all around a directly worse option. I am not sure if the mark was missed when the idea around a large range of weapons that are all a bit similar - I have not played more than 10 hours of it, though I imagine that there would be a lot of limitations upon creating a vastly different kind of weapon.
The Heavy Scatter Laser is one that makes little sense. It seems to not be consistent with the idea of sacrificing OOMPH (system damage, breach chance) to bring down shields. I assume that there is no way to get one projectile to bring down multiple layers of shields, so the heavy scatter just seems like a shittier, heavier laser. So I feel you on the idea that there is a sort of false sense of choice... if you did make that point, that is.

The trading and combat augment situation is probably anpther thing that is unavoidable. You probably cant add more augment slots (I don't know nuffin) so the only thing to do would be to 'buff' the benefits of trading?

I like that the game is harder, and that there are so many more variables added to the mix, but I have not played long enough to figure out if the mark was missed. If the soup was ruined.
Tycho X
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.277b/Inf 1.267/EL 1.275

Postby Tycho X » Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:34 am

I agree with a lot of the things said above. Although honestly, I really like it that way. 'Variety is the spice of life.' Plus it makes the game more difficult for veterans. Just switch to easy mode.

The only thing which I really dislike is the inefficiency of the trading system. I understand that this probably can't be changed. The other day I came up with an idea; every ship has 4 cargo slots. So why not make trade goods unusable weapons with no textures and a high price? I think that might work. The Endless Loot addon adds 'vintage' weapons, and from what I can tell, you're just supposed to sell them for a load of scrap.
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thereaverofdarkness
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.277b/Inf 1.267/EL 1.275

Postby thereaverofdarkness » Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:25 am

I don't know if it's a bug in CE, but I seemed to get a lot less fuel my first time playing it than I get in a normal game. This coupled with the various ways to spend more fuel caused me to find it very difficult to progress. I was buying all of the fuel at every store I came across, and they weren't selling much, but it was the only thing keeping me afloat because I seemed to almost never get fuel from combat. Whatever is causing it is a game-breaking issue. All of these neat features aren't worth getting brutally slaughtered on easy difficulty just because fuel never shows up.
Artamba
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.277b/Inf 1.267/EL 1.275

Postby Artamba » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:40 am

Tycho X wrote:I agree with a lot of the things said above. Although honestly, I really like it that way. 'Variety is the spice of life.' Plus it makes the game more difficult for veterans. Just switch to easy mode.

The only thing which I really dislike is the inefficiency of the trading system. I understand that this probably can't be changed. The other day I came up with an idea; every ship has 4 cargo slots. So why not make trade goods unusable weapons with no textures and a high price? I think that might work. The Endless Loot addon adds 'vintage' weapons, and from what I can tell, you're just supposed to sell them for a load of scrap.


I think the cargo hold cannot be used for trading because items in the cargo hold can't trigger any kind of event choice. Just a guess :3

Also, TheReaverofDarkness, it's easy to blame the game for bad decisions you didn't even understand you took. It's also easily possible that you got damn unlucky not getting any fuel from encounters, but there's so many options to avoid fights and get resources in CE that I think it might just be that you're not used to it all! Especially since you lowered yourself to easy mode! :P
Tycho X
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.277b/Inf 1.267/EL 1.275

Postby Tycho X » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:51 am

Artamba wrote:I think the cargo hold cannot be used for trading because items in the cargo hold can't trigger any kind of event choice. Just a guess :3


That's a pretty good guess! Yes, that must be why it doesn't work. :geek:
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